engine pad judging question

[Edward M.]

Since I don't have my judging guides handy, here is the question.

What sort of deduction would you expect for a engine pad that had everything correct except the VIN derivative.

In other words, the engine came of out a different Corvette, but the dates, etc. were close enough that it would work for the car in question.

Also assume for the sake of this discussion that the car had all of the proper equipment to match the engine suffix on the pad.

Where I am going with this is do we make an assumption that, since the VIN is not correct, and this engine could not have come in this car, then it is now in question if this car came with that type of engine.

Extreme example: 1967 L88. Car is represented as an L88, and everything is correct, but the VIN number doesn't match (and isn't close enough that it could be considered a factory mistake).

Example:
Car VIN = 194677S122983
VIN on pad: 7S122965

[Jack H.]

Re: engine pad judging question

The pad's worth 88 points with the division being: 25 for Flint/Tonawanda stamp, 25 for St. Louis stamp, and 38 for broach marks.

[Michael M.]

Re: engine pad judging question

Edward the engine pad is a tuff subject. If anything is wrong I guess it would be a full deduction. It would be hard to say how the judge would react to your different vin. #.

[William C.]

Re: engine pad judging question

OK, all you need to do is open the judging manual to the "mechanical" section and you will see the final credit is a series of building blocks as follows, Casting number and case configuration correct is 350 points, casting date gets 175, assembly stamping gets 25, vin is 25, and stamp pad surface gets 38. In your example, a 25 point deduct is possible, in a judging situation, out of 1240 total available mechanical points. A buyer may have a different opinion, but NCRS is a "preservation and restoration" organization. Very similar question about a week or two ago, you might want to search the archives.

[Edward M.]

Re: engine pad judging question

OK, so that would appear to be a 25 point deduction for incorrect VIN, assuming everything else if "fine". Thanks.

[Michael W.]

Re: engine pad judging question

I guess the responders missed the subtlety of Ed's real question. I wondered about the same thing myself the other day. This serves to emphasize the general misunderstanding by the non-NCRS crowd regarding Flight awards.

In Ed's example above (although extreme) if two L88s were presented for judging where one car is a known, legitimate, documented, 'real' car with original engine, and the other is an expertly crafted undocumented clone with an engine borrowed from some other L88, all other things being equal the difference in final points score would be a minuscule 25 points.

[Edward M.]

Re: engine pad judging question

I guess the responders missed the subtlety of Ed's real question. I wondered about the same thing myself the other day. This serves to emphasize the general misunderstanding by the non-NCRS crowd regarding Flight awards.

In Ed's example above (although extreme) if two L88s were presented for judging where one car is a known, legitimate, documented, 'real' car with original engine, and the other is an expertly crafted undocumented clone with an engine borrowed from some other L88, all other things being equal the difference in final points score would be a minuscule 25 points.

Mike gets it

[Terry M.]

Re: engine pad judging question

I guess the responders missed the subtlety of Ed's real question. I wondered about the same thing myself the other day. This serves to emphasize the general misunderstanding by the non-NCRS crowd regarding Flight awards.

A point missed by some NCRS members as well.

However, that said, how would one know that the one car was a clone? The engine from another car doesn't tell you that by itself. There would have to be some other clues -- which would likely result in their own set of deductions. Perhaps not very large ones, but enough to make the points difference greater than you suggest.

[Edward M.]

Re: engine pad judging question

OK, I got one even better.

Two cars on the same judging field. Cars have different VINs, but VINs are clsoe enough that the cars could have been built close to each other.

Car 1: VIN and VIN derivative match, so car appears to be "matching numbers".

Car 2: Car VIN and VIN derivative on engine don't match, but VIN derivative of engine in Car 2 matches the VIN of Car 1.

Possible scenario: Car 1 lost it's original engine, and now has a "restoration" engine". Car 2 also lost it's original engine, and Car 2 now has the original engine from Car 1.

I know, to many "what ifs".....

[Michael W.]

Re: engine pad judging question

However, that said, how would one know that the one car was a clone? The engine from another car doesn't tell you that by itself. There would have to be some other clues -- which would likely result in their own set of deductions. Perhaps not very large ones, but enough to make the points difference greater than you suggest.

That's why I gave the caveat of 'all other things being equal'. In reality, the total point deduct could be higher on either the real or clone car. Perhaps the real car had been carefully preserved by the owner but ended up with a few service replacement parts over the years whereas the repromobile owner did a better job of crossing the Is and dotting the Ts.

Uhh,I think both you and Ed have jobs, not like me. Get back to work please.

[Edward M.]

Re: engine pad judging question

Uhh,I think both you and Ed have jobs, not like me. Get back to work please.

I'm multi-tasking. My other task is helping to design America's next manned space vehicle.

[John H.]

Re: engine pad judging question

Car 2: Car VIN and VIN derivative on engine don't match, but VIN derivative of engine in Car 2 matches the VIN of Car 1.

Ed -

Car 2 gets a 25-point deduction for the VIN stamp (and conversation ensues later with the owner of Car 1 being very interested in the story behind the engine in Car 2 ).

[Tracy C.]

Re: engine pad judging question

I'm multi-tasking. My other task is helping to design America's next manned space vehicle.

Ed...just make sure you get the VIN stamp right.

[Terry M.]

Re: engine pad judging question

Uhh,I think both you and Ed have jobs, not like me. Get back to work please.

We just has cake and coffee (actually coffee is always on) for someone with 40 years of service -- work is real slow here now and will probably get slower next week. NO rocket systems here.

[Harmon C.]

Re: engine pad judging question

I think if an L-88 shows up on the judging field the car would be in question before anyone got to the stamp pad.