Documentation discussion: Mid Year

[John R.]

Wondered if I could solicit opinions regarding documentation? For consideration, lets discuss which option below is better documentation and which will influence the value of the car the MOST when I sell it:

1) Locating the original owner and requesting a notarized statement regarding the car and what he remembers about the car and its options along with title history including Manufacturer's Statement of Origin

2) tank sticker and POP, eventhough we have seen these reproduced with no original owner notarized statement or owner history

or

3) some other documentation.

Just trying to do the best I can to document a car and need advice. I have finally located the original owner (what a MIRACLE!) and I want to get information from him while he is still living, if you know what I mean!!! What would be important to get from him???

Thanks for your consideration.

John

[Joe L.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

Wondered if I could solicit opinions regarding documentation? For consideration, lets discuss which option below is better documentation and which will influence the value of the car the MOST when I sell it:

1) Locating the original owner and requesting a notarized statement regarding the car and what he remembers about the car and its options along with title history including Manufacturer's Statement of Origin

2) tank sticker and POP, eventhough we have seen these reproduced with no original owner notarized statement or owner history

or

3) some other documentation.

Just trying to do the best I can to document a car and need advice. I have finally located the original owner (what a MIRACLE!) and I want to get information from him while he is still living, if you know what I mean!!! What would be important to get from him???

Thanks for your consideration.

John

John------


I would say (2). The original owner's recollection of the car could be VERY "clouded" by this time. A notarized statement only tells someone that it was this, particular individual making the statement. It doesn't verify that he was the actual original owner of the car (although you can otherwise and separately establish that) AND it does not verify that the statements/information are accurate. Nevertheless, any information you can obtain from the original owner is valuable and definitely worth obtaining.

I doubt that the original owner will have much, if anything, in the way of title history. After all, not much such history existed when he owned the car. I also don't think he'll have an MSO. I believe that most states require this document to be surrendered when the vehicle is originally registered. In California, I never even saw the MSO for any of my cars; the dealer submitted it to the state DMV to process the registration.

[Mark K.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

John------


I would say (2). The original owner's recollection of the car could be VERY "clouded" by this time. A notarized statement only tells someone that it was this, particular individual making the statement. It doesn't verify that he was the actual original owner of the car (although you can otherwise and separately establish that) AND it does not verify that the statements/information are accurate. Nevertheless, any information you can obtain from the original owner is valuable and definitely worth obtaining.

I doubt that the original owner will have much, if anything, in the way of title history. After all, not much such history existed when he owned the car. I also don't think he'll have an MSO. I believe that most states require this document to be surrendered when the vehicle is originally registered. In California, I never even saw the MSO for any of my cars; the dealer submitted it to the state DMV to process the registration.

I agree that option "2" is probably best. But consider that documentation builds on itself. The more you have of it, the harder it is for someone to cry 'fake'. If you can get (or already have) the following documentation you are ahead of the game:
. Original Window Sticker
. Body shipper
. Tank sticker (preferably still on the tank - but visible and clean)
. POP (with service records noted inside)
. Original Owner's manual
. Contemporaneous news article(s) on the car (if possible with pictures)
. Letters from all prior owners with perhaps some of their pictures (don't forget to return their pictures).
. Copies of the titles as far back as possible.
. Sales documents - especially from the dealer
. Maintenance records
. Original invoice of the car.
. Original keys (as silly as this sounds, there are numbers on the keys that tie to the body shipper)
. Letter from the salesman who sold the car (if possible)

I would not consider awards the car has won as documentation (though they are nice). I probably would consider Al Grenning's blessing of the engine pad as part of the documentation.

[Roger P.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

Mark,
I recently obtained the original key for my '65 from one of the previous owners. What can be derived from the numbers on the key, and how would I go about obtaining that information?

Thank you,
Roger (50141)

[Terry M.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

Mark,
I recently obtained the original key for my '65 from one of the previous owners. What can be derived from the numbers on the key, and how would I go about obtaining that information?

Thank you,
Roger (50141)

Those numbers, and the super-secret decoder ring (you did save your breakfast cereal box-tops, right? ), will allow you to make many more keys to fit your Corvette. If you have access to original key blanks, and little stamping dies for the numbers, and the tool to "cut" the key, you can even make more keys for judging. If you decide to forgo the search for all that ancillary stuff you can contact Peter Lindahl through this board. He has all those items, and can make you bang on "factory original" key(s) for your Corvette.

[Peter B.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

Question for Joe Lucia,

Referencing your note above...how can the key numbers be tracked back to the body shipper?

I have what appears to be the original keys. The only evidence is the extreme wear on the ignition key, it's a mere shadow of its former self, but the key code is readable and it still fires it up. Does "body shipper" refer to the delivery of the body shell to the factory or the completed car to the dealer?

This is the first I've heard of this bit of trivia...very interesting and thanks for the posting.

Pete

[Peter B.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

Mark...

Oops!!! My comment/question above should have been addressed to you.

Pete

[John H.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

how can the key numbers be tracked back to the body shipper? Does "body shipper" refer to the delivery of the body shell to the factory or the completed car to the dealer?

The key numbers never appeared on any document except on Copy #7 of the "Corvette Order", where they were manually typed in at the end of the line, along with the engine, transmission and axle numbers, carburetor code, VIN, and the date of production. Everything else on the "Corvette Order" (and the window sticker and Car Shipper) was computer-printed long before the car was actually built.

The "Car Shipper" was for the finished car to the dealer.

[Mark K.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

The key numbers never appeared on any document except on Copy #7 of the "Corvette Order", where they were manually typed in at the end of the line, along with the engine, transmission and axle numbers, carburetor code, VIN, and the date of production. Everything else on the "Corvette Order" (and the window sticker and Car Shipper) was computer-printed long before the car was actually built.

The "Car Shipper" was for the finished car to the dealer.

John, Perhaps some nomenclature confusion on my part. I have referred to the following pieces of documentation as the "body shipper" and the "dealer invoice". What should I refer to the Copy #7 document as? And what is correct terminology for the second document?

[Tom S.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

I agree paper work is important. But I have let some nice cars slide away because I insisted on paper work. I would say check all the numbers and other info you can get off the car and go from there. Back in the 50's through the 80's alot of people did not take care of the paper work! Don't let just the lack of paperwork stop you from buying an otherwise nice original car. JMHO. Tom Stanton

[Michael M.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

I have a car invoice dated 2/23/65 from Norris Chevrolet in N.J. On the top of the invoice there are boxes for MAKE, YEAR, MODEL, BODY STYLE, NEW OR USED, and KEY NUMBER. For the car on the invoice its a 1965 Corvette Sport Coupe with a base engine and a powerglide. The KEY NUMBER is #8080.

[William L.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

Wondered if I could solicit opinions regarding documentation? For consideration, lets discuss which option below is better documentation and which will influence the value of the car the MOST when I sell it:

1) Locating the original owner and requesting a notarized statement regarding the car and what he remembers about the car and its options along with title history including Manufacturer's Statement of Origin

2) tank sticker and POP, eventhough we have seen these reproduced with no original owner notarized statement or owner history

or

3) some other documentation.

Just trying to do the best I can to document a car and need advice. I have finally located the original owner (what a MIRACLE!) and I want to get information from him while he is still living, if you know what I mean!!! What would be important to get from him???

Thanks for your consideration.

John

John Any documentation you can gather is important. But for my car the doc's I covet the most are the Notarized letters I have from the original owner and the second owner. To me these are legal documents that they have signed stating what the car was.
Bill

[Lynn H.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

Here is the copy of what I believe John was referring to as the "Corvette Order", from my 63 convertible. I believe this is copy #5 and is marked as the dealer copy of this document on the bottom. You can see all the information John mentioned, including the key number at the bottom left. Note the N34 Steering wheel and the T86 back up lamps, in the option listing both fairly rare on the 63 models.
Lynn

[John H.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

John, Perhaps some nomenclature confusion on my part. I have referred to the following pieces of documentation as the "body shipper" and the "dealer invoice". What should I refer to the Copy #7 document as? And what is correct terminology for the second document?

Mark -

This document is the Dealer Wholesale Invoice, which was mailed to the dealer the day after the car was shipped. The first document is simply "Copy 7 of the Corvette Order". It was computer printed in the same carbon stack with the "Corvette Order Copy" (commonly called the "tank sticker"), the Car Shipper, and the window sticker, before the car was built, so the VIN number on those documents was either rubber-stamped or manually typed.

Photo below is the "Car Shipper", which went with the finished car to the dealer; there was no "Body Shipper".

[John R.]

Re: Documentation discussion: Mid Year

Joe, actually do have the complete title history on this car and the MSO. The MSO is a really neat document, amoung other things, it shows the date the car went through the closest distribution point to the end dealer which was in my home town, Jacksonville, FL. Was lucky that someone in the 1980's asked the State for the history and the State sent back EVERYTHING! These documents came with the car. That was how I was able to locate the original owner. As a matter of fact the original owners wife was the title clerk at the Dealership, Jim Rathman Chevrolet in Melbourne, FL, the Cape area. The original owner actually worked at the Cape as an engineer. Rathman was known to give the Astronauts vettes to promote them, so I am told.

Thanks to everyone for their comments!