Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

[Chris E.]

Ok guys, so here's a really silly question.

I just did a complete restoration on my car, yet the interior is almost completely original. In other words, I just put the seats back in the car, put the dash back in, steering column, center console, jack storage board, etc, etc. The only big thing that is not original is the carpet.

I read through the Judging Reference Manual, and it says that the Interior has to be 85% original to get the 1 star for Bowtie.

Where can I get a copy of these judging sheets to understand if it would even be worth the trip to another convention?

[Terry M.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

You need a Bowtie sign-off at a Regional before the National Convention. Try the Regional first.

No Star/Bowtie Judging Sheets are available. One has no need for the score sheets (no one gets them back) because one can not improve a car to Star/Bowtie standards. The car either is, or isn't. And if it isn't up to the standard there is nothing you can do to get it there.

I will tell you it is not a good sign that the interior has been apart. The Bowtie Judges tend to look very skeptically at a car that has been disassembled. They expect the replacement of normal maintenance items. For example a thermostat change or accessory drive belt change is to be expected if the car has any mileage -- so the thermostat housing has been removed and the gasket replaced. Original tires, exhaust or batteries are often not seen, but worn carpet and seats are to be expected also, so long as the wear is compatible with the milage shown.

[Chris E.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

Ok, so it sounds like when I go to the Iowa Regional next may, I should just sign up for the pre-inspection and get their thoughts. I kind of doubt the car will be asked to move on to Nationals for Bowtie judging. However, I was thinking about how much of the interior is original and untouched (albeit out of the car once and put back in). It occurred to me that I might have a shot at it. Trying is cheap and doesn't hurt anything I guess.

Just curious, thanks.

[Terry M.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

That is true. If you intend to have the car flight judged anyway -- the Bowtie inspection is free. As one of my old Air Force buddies used to say: "Don't cost no more!"

[Reba W.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

Chris, the Star/Bowtie signoff is only good until the next convention. Should you achieve approval in May, it would have to be judged at Charlotte in July. The limit for Star/Bowtie judging is four per class and most likely that will be filled before May.

If you are serious about pursuing this, you may want to wait until 2011, when the convention will be in Michigan.

As an interior judge, I can say that Terry has made a very valid point regarding disassembly.

[Chris E.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

Reba,
Understood on all counts. I don't suspect that the car will get "the signoff", so asking for it next May won't hurt. Plus, like Terry says, it doesn't cost anything.

Since I never before considered by car for a Bowtie, I never did any research to understand what the process was about nor what the requirements were. So, I thought I'd ask here.

If I ge the signoff in May, I understand that is only good for the next convention. The neat part is, if by some miracle, I do get the signoff, I can always ask for the signoff AGAIN at another convention. I'm assuming that the Bowtie class fills up pretty quick and this practice is common. (similar to the multiple efforts needed to get into Bloomington Gold if your name isn't drawn the first time out due to a full class)

[Greg H.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

You need a Bowtie sign-off at a Regional before the National Convention. Try the Regional first.

No Star/Bowtie Judging Sheets are available. One has no need for the score sheets (no one gets them back) because one can not improve a car to Star/Bowtie standards. The car either is, or isn't. And if it isn't up to the standard there is nothing you can do to get it there.

I will tell you it is not a good sign that the interior has been apart. The Bowtie Judges tend to look very skeptically at a car that has been disassembled. They expect the replacement of normal maintenance items. For example a thermostat change or accessory drive belt change is to be expected if the car has any mileage -- so the thermostat housing has been removed and the gasket replaced. Original tires, exhaust or batteries are often not seen, but worn carpet and seats are to be expected also, so long as the wear is compatible with the milage shown.

Terry,

I'm in the same boat, and already have the sign-off for Charlotte if I decide to go. But I'm not clear on what is being judged. As you say they don't like to see the car has been dis-assembled. But what about maintenance beyond belts or hoses? For example, I know my interior has been "disturbed" due to a faulty wiring harness from the factory, and a repaired heater core which required the carpet to be taken out and dried, and I've swapped the seat positions to minimize wear on the drivers side. All the parts are original to the car but some have been removed and replaced. Should I bother having it judged for interior? If the criteria is "untouched factory installation" then i shoud forget it. If the criteria is "original facotry installed parts" then I should proceed.

From your description, and other comments I've picked up in my short time in NCRS this particular award process seems to have a lot of speculation involved.

[Terry M.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

"Normal maintenance" (whatever that might mean) is acceptable, and expected. If a part has been removed and re-installed EXACTLY as it was installed at St Louis, or Flint, or Bowling Green then the judges will not be able to discern the work.

It is difficult, but not impossible, to disturb fasteners and reinstall them in such a way that one can not tell -- but tool marks or the ghost shadow from a slightly misaligned nut or bolt head can be a give away.

I would think heater core replacement might be considered normal maintenance on an early C3 that is now going on 40-years old. The problem is not so much with the carpet, but with the IP (Instrument Panel) and heater box screws. Those are rarely put back in the same place they came out of, but it is not impossible to do that.

There is going to be no guarantee of success in the pursuit of the Star/Bowtie judging. The car owner has to take the risk if they want the reward. There is, or should be, no speculation involved -- but the assessment on the part of the judges IS subjective, so it is impossible to know with any degree of certainty before hand the outcome of the process. Add to that the fact that it is a one-time process and it takes a lot of stones to step up to this process. The rewards in terms of gratification (and those are the only rewards, unless you count the cost of the ribbon or plaque) are equally large. Not everyone can or should own a Star/Bowtie car. It is a large responsibility, but without those cars NCRS, and other Corvette judging organizations, would have NO standards. Those of us who judge, and owners who are restoring their Corvettes, are grateful to the owners of Star/Bowtie Corvettes for their service to the hobby. You can often see that gratitude expressed when pictures are posted here.

Sorry this is so long, but the subject lights my fire.

[Greg H.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

"Normal maintenance" (whatever that might mean) is acceptable, and expected. If a part has been removed and re-installed EXACTLY as it was installed at St Louis, or Flint, or Bowling Green then the judges will not be able to discern the work.

It is difficult, but not impossible, to disturb fasteners and reinstall them in such a way that one can not tell -- but tool marks or the ghost shadow from a slightly misaligned nut or bolt head can be a give away.

I would think heater core replacement might be considered normal maintenance on an early C3 that is now going on 40-years old. The problem is not so much with the carpet, but with the IP (Instrument Panel) and heater box screws. Those are rarely put back in the same place they came out of, but it is not impossible to do that.

There is going to be no guarantee of success in the pursuit of the Star/Bowtie judging. The car owner has to take the risk if they want the reward. There is, or should be, no speculation involved -- but the assessment on the part of the judges IS subjective, so it is impossible to know with any degree of certainty before hand the outcome of the process. Add to that the fact that it is a one-time process and it takes a lot of stones to step up to this process. The rewards in terms of gratification (and those are the only rewards, unless you count the cost of the ribbon or plaque) are equally large. Not everyone can or should own a Star/Bowtie car. It is a large responsibility, but without those cars NCRS, and other Corvette judging organizations, would have NO standards. Those of us who judge, and owners who are restoring their Corvettes, are grateful to the owners of Star/Bowtie Corvettes for their service to the hobby. You can often see that gratitude expressed when pictures are posted here.

Sorry this is so long, but the subject lights my fire.

Terry,

That is an excellent explanation, which I can wholeheartedly accept. My conclusion is that 80-85% originality applies to the parts as well as the assembly technique of the parts, and must be consistent with what the judges know to be typical. To me this is the "easiest" award to step up to, as it is a refelction of the car itself, and it's history, not the restorer. See you in Charlotte.

[Terry M.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

Terry,

That is an excellent explanation, which I can wholeheartedly accept. My conclusion is that 80-85% originality applies to the parts as well as the assembly technique of the parts, and must be consistent with what the judges know to be typical. To me this is the "easiest" award to step up to, as it is a refelction of the car itself, and it's history, not the restorer. See you in Charlotte.

You have it exactly right. I look forward to seeing you and your Corvette in Charlotte. Bring along any pictures or documentation you have, or copies of it -- we enjoy seeing that kind of stuff. We want to hear the story of your Corvette. In Flight Judging the judges have to figure out the car's story, but in Star/Bowtie Judging we expect the owner to share that story with us.

Relax and enjoy the ride.

[Chris E.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

Terry, thanks for the great description of the expectation of the process.

In my case, if the car passes the "go ahead" check in point, I'll consider bringing it to nationals for Bowtie judging. If not, it is a done deal and no skin off my nose.

Much appreciated.

[Lynn H.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

Chris, Terry, Greg, and Reba-
I too have a fairly original car that I have spoken with other members about the possibility of Bowtie Judging. I also attended one of the two session bowtie seminars given by Terry (with his excellent LT-1 example) at the Windsor National a few years back. I personally found this to be a VERY interesteing and rewarding experience, as well as seeing first hand Terrys' passion for this subject. I am a third owner of a very well documented 63 convertible. It has had one laquer repaint, new top, and interior carpet and seat covers replaced (changed interior color from red to black-painted the dash and door panels) in 1980 when still in the possesion of the original owner who owned the car in California for almost 39 years. It has 68K miles and I know the water pump and radiator have been replaced. Besides the tires and me reapainting the valve covers when I first bought the car in 2003 (I now wish I had not done that), the mechanical and chassis aspects of this car are remarkable.
That being said , I know that the possibility of receiving two of the four stars are impossible. One questoinable, and one probably pretty good. But maybe a larger issue here, is there something here that is of interest and educational for other members. Stellar examples of completly original cars of this vintage do not pop up everyday. So I think there may be some advantages to running these cars through the process, besides the awards themselves. My car is nothing special per say, but does have the N34 wheel and T86 back up lights (both farily rare options). I also have a copy of the dealer order to document this as being original to the car. I am very reluctant to to anything to this car. It has a couple of leaks (nothing major) and I drive this car and enjoy it very much.
Thoughts.......
Gee, if Terry apologizes for long posting, I guess I need to beg for forgiveness!!
Lynn

[Terry M.]

Re: Bowtie or not to Bowtie?

Gilbert, Thank you for the compliment. I enjoy showing the features of Corvettes. It is a lot of fun, but sometimes my Irish gets the best of me.

I recommend you talk to Carlton Colclough the 1963-64 National Team Leader. Contact information is on the third page of The Corvette Restorer or through the CONTACTS button at the top of this page. Carlton travels for his job, so have some patience. Actually if you can catch him at a Regional meet and speak to him in person, that would even be better -- but now the next chance of that will be Kissimmee, FL, in January.

He can best advise you regarding what the 1963/4 team is used to seeing for Star/Bowtie cars.