6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

[John H.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

There is some instances when the car is ready to roll off the assembly line and it doesn't restart. Finding out it is a defective carb. The replacement carb now installed is dated( maybe 2 weeks) after the final assembly date of the car.

Dealers always want to sell a perfect car so most likely the check list or factory repair list was never given to the owner. It probably stayed in the filing cabinet of the dealership.

Grant

Grant -

If a carb needed to be changed, it came from the Engine Dress Line, on the same day; cars didn't sit in Final Process for 2-3 weeks waiting for a carb change.

The factory inspection/repair ticket didn't leave the plant; it was removed at the final buyoff station on the Shipping Line, and the dealer never saw it. All the dealer got (in the car) was the window sticker and Car Shipper copy, and (in the mail) the wholesale invoice.

[Grant W.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

I'm confused as well. If these were warranty replacements, they'd likely have a later date, not an earlier date.

Hi William
I had to re-read your post again. Been busy under the tiger and the vette and too much blood from draining to my brain so I didn't read your post correctly.
I had thought the parts were after the build date of your car. Bad me!!!

With the dates of the starter 7/11/72 and fan clutch 8/16/72 I think it is okay. I would have left it the way it was or if you changed it then keep the "original" parts.
They made over 30 thousand 73's and only 4412 454's. It is plausible at that time frame as the assembly line they ran out of a closer dated part for your car so they took what they had left in the plant and installed it on the car. Funnier things have happen....finding a coke bottle in a buddies 75 Camaro inside the door panel.

Regarding the paper work from the plant about the carb repair and sent to the dealership. Well my friends 68 vette had all the original paper work from the original 1st owner and included was a repair order paper work for the carb and something else. The paper work really didn't dawn on me as it was 10 years ago. Paper work wasn't as scrutinized as it is now. I should have taken photo copies.
Hope this helps. Grant

[Brian M.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

Got me dizzy too.

Quite the opposite, you've confused the heck out of me.

[Ian G.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

Seems to me that if you are convinced those two parts are original to the car AND you already got Top Flight, then just leave them on the car. No loss, no foul. However, if you removed them because you needed to get a higher % of points for a higher grade award, then you may as well play the game to win the higher award. Just save the parts and put them back on afterwards. I understand your concern, and I plan to plate some bolts black phosphate that NCRS says should be cad, because that's how I found them and they have original headmarks. I'll just grin and bear the points loss.

There are exceptions to every rule, but you can't change the rule to fit the exception, because there will always be an exception to the exception -- if you know what I mean. The rule is meant to capture the typical example, and there is leeway in the points for topflight to allow for possible exceptions. If NCRS were to change the rule to allow 9 months back for instance, and someone comes along and says "Hey my part seems very original, and its 10 months back. Why don't we change the rule?" -- do we then consider changing the rule again?

It is a slippery slope, and only serves to eventually erode the integrity of the NCRS award.

[William M.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

Seems to me that if you are convinced those two parts are original to the car AND you already got Top Flight, then just leave them on the car. No loss, no foul. However, if you removed them because you needed to get a higher % of points for a higher grade award, then you may as well play the game to win the higher award. Just save the parts and put them back on afterwards. I understand your concern, and I plan to plate some bolts black phosphate that NCRS says should be cad, because that's how I found them and they have original headmarks. I'll just grin and bear the points loss.

There are exceptions to every rule, but you can't change the rule to fit the exception, because there will always be an exception to the exception -- if you know what I mean. The rule is meant to capture the typical example, and there is leeway in the points for topflight to allow for possible exceptions. If NCRS were to change the rule to allow 9 months back for instance, and someone comes along and says "Hey my part seems very original, and its 10 months back. Why don't we change the rule?" -- do we then consider changing the rule again?

It is a slippery slope, and only serves to eventually erode the integrity of the NCRS award.

Got a 96.7% at the Regional, obviously I would like to get to 97%. So, I will "play the game" and put on my recently purchased 1/73 fan clutch and 2/73 starter. I will, of course, keep the originals with the knowledge that they're what really belong on the car.

[Jim D.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

Seems to me that if you are convinced those two parts are original to the car AND you already got Top Flight, then just leave them on the car. No loss, no foul. However, if you removed them because you needed to get a higher % of points for a higher grade award, then you may as well play the game to win the higher award. Just save the parts and put them back on afterwards. I understand your concern, and I plan to plate some bolts black phosphate that NCRS says should be cad, because that's how I found them and they have original headmarks. I'll just grin and bear the points loss.

There are exceptions to every rule, but you can't change the rule to fit the exception, because there will always be an exception to the exception -- if you know what I mean. The rule is meant to capture the typical example, and there is leeway in the points for topflight to allow for possible exceptions. If NCRS were to change the rule to allow 9 months back for instance, and someone comes along and says "Hey my part seems very original, and its 10 months back. Why don't we change the rule?" -- do we then consider changing the rule again?

It is a slippery slope, and only serves to eventually erode the integrity of the NCRS award.

So what you're saying is that even though a part is orignal to the car, and is the way it was delivered, it's okay to get a deduction because it doesn't agree with what the Judging Guide says or it is different from what "the majority" of other cars came with? I disagree. Why would anyone want to change an original car to meet a guide that is obviously incorrect. For example, why should I change the original vacuum advance unit on my 65 because "The Guide" says it's wrong even though other reference materials say it's correct? Making those changes is a fools game which I will not participate in.

[Roy B.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

I remember all the changes the 57 JM has gone through and many things were incorrect about what was original or not , AND many people that changed thier parts to meet the JM knowing that the JM was wrong . But the smart guys kept the parts they changed till the JM changed . In one way it is a game but the only game in town . Corvettes judged years ago getting a top flight would be hard to get a third flight today.
Many of you newer guys today dont realize how hard it is keeping the JM up to date.

[Ian G.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

Hey Jim,

I'm not saying he change the car permanently, I'm saying he should change it TEMPORARILY. Why not? He's .3% away from getting the % he needs to try for four stars (or whatever award it is for this year vette, I have a 59). He should keep the original parts and put them back on later, when he's done jumping through the award hoops and he is ready to move on to a new challenge.

[Edward C.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

William, change back to what you believe is the origional parts and don't feel guilty. Stand by your convictions and argue the points with the sometimes arbitrary Judges. Ed

[Ian G.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

Being relatively new to NCRS myself... Do judges make exceptions to the date rule without supporting documentation, like say a letter from the previous owners that they never changed the items in question? Judges go pretty much "by the book" on that question, don't they?

[Patrick H.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

Being relatively new to NCRS myself... Do judges make exceptions to the date rule without supporting documentation, like say a letter from the previous owners that they never changed the items in question? Judges go pretty much "by the book" on that question, don't they?

Generally, yes.

Knowledgeable judges understand that certain engine options, for example, had parts with date codes well outside the 6 month window. The 67 300 horse intake, for example, or the 71 LS-6 carburetors and distributors.

You have to play the "odds" when judging. Since most engines have all their parts built within a 1 month time span, what are the odds that this one did not and the parts are actually older than the "allowed" 6 month window? You take into account the engine, strikes, and other factors when making a decision.

Patrick

[Roy B.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

It works both ways , I've judged many parts that have been wrong then the guy comes back mad and says , BUT the JM says it's correct even tho the JM is wrong . So even tho the JM IS wrong I still have to give him full points.It's happened to many times , then the guy thinks a judge is a dummy. I've seen so many wrong and poor design repro parts judged as original that I just give up and go with the flow as many older judges do. Your best bet is to get a newer judging person that goes by the JM and doesn't try to educate.
As the years go by most Corvette will be wearing repro parts anyway and they'll all be generic (all the same looking ) sorry for the rant!!!

[William M.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

William, change back to what you believe is the origional parts and don't feel guilty. Stand by your convictions and argue the points with the sometimes arbitrary Judges. Ed

I have argued the point to no avail. My experience is the 6 months is cast in stone.

[John M.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

I definitely would not have changed the parts, but I have never been judged, and likely never will.

Let me get this straight though:
1) 5 months 29 days is OK
2) 6 months one day is not ok and would cause a "restorer" to replace with a non original part that is 5 months 29 days old.

How does this advance the hobby?

[John H.]

Re: 6 Month Rule - Feeling Guilty

How does this advance the hobby?

Because in the overwhelming majority of cases, six months is WAY beyond the norm, based on observations of hundreds of known-original cars. The line has to be drawn somewhere.