Proper role for an OJ

[Troy P.]

I was reading some old posts just now and there was a comment in one that while serving as an OJ (Observer Judge) the poster pointed out a discrepancy on a car that the judges had missed. I did this once as well but felt uneasy about it and kept my mouth shut over several other discrepancies.

This raises the question of wether or not an OJ should participate in any way in the judging or literally just observe and learn? What is the NCRS position on this?

[Edward M.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

Interesting question.

Think about the overall goal of NCRS. The Restoration and Preservation of Corvettes.

That does not translate, as many think, into getting a top flight award. It more appropriately translates to helping the owner get his/her car as close to factory original as possible.

All judges, no matter how experienced, occasionally miss things. In addition, I personally believe that experienced jusges have a separate job to help educate less experienced (i.e OJ) judges.

So, I suggest that the OJ discretely point out the discrepancy and ask the judges if it is a discrepancy, and why or why not.

The owners car will get better for this, the OJ will learn from this, and the judges will make note to look for this in the future. Win-win-win.

Just my 1.5 cents (my opinion ain't worth 2 cents).

[Terry M.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

All judges, no matter how experienced, occasionally miss things. In addition, I personally believe that experienced jusges have a separate job to help educate less experienced (i.e OJ) judges.

So, I suggest that the OJ discretely point out the discrepancy and ask the judges if it is a discrepancy, and why or why not.

The owners car will get better for this, the OJ will learn from this, and the judges will make note to look for this in the future. Win-win-win.

Just my 1.5 cents (my opinion ain't worth 2 cents).

I agree with Ed. The operative word is in bold.

Part (the major part in my opinion) of the skill of being a judge is what now days is called "people skills." At the age most of us are, no one can teach us these skills; we either have them or we don't. Anyone can learn the skills to identify TFP (Typical Factory Production), however fewer are gifted with the skills to explain these features to others (including the owner) in a way that is positive and productive.

ALL the judges, most especially the OJ, need to sense the owners attitude and adjust their conversation to that. Conversation also is dictated by the temperment and workload of the judges. In some cases the OJ can be a full and equal participant in the judging process, and in others discretion is more appropriate. If there is any doubt, the route of discretion is always more appropriate.

When I was NTL on occasion I had to instruct the judging teams on this point.

[Chuck S.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

...All judges, no matter how experienced, occasionally miss things. In addition, I personally believe that experienced jusges have a separate job to help educate less experienced (i.e OJ) judges...

I agree with you, Ed. Unfortunately, I don't think there is enough discretion in the world to soften that revelation to some judges; "they can't handle the truth".

I think it depends on the judge...Some will treat OJs like inexperienced colleages and carefully explain what they're seeing; others see an observer as a burden to be brought along, and others simply ignore OJs and let them fend for themselves. I've probably been guilty of not helping an OJ as I should have...the judging work load will have a strong influence on the relationship.

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and JMs were far less detailed...I found that asking a few humble questions sometimes worked to focus the inattentive judge on his oversight, but even that can backfire.

[Edward M.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

Terry and Chuck both make good points.

This is a bit off topic, but perhaps one of the roles of the National Team Leader is to evaulate the "people skills" abilities of his/her judges.

A 400 level master judge that consistently makes the owner mad, and causes additional "situations" for the NLT to deal with may be less valuable to NCRS than an inexperienced judge that has good people skills.

One additional thought for you NLTs, pairing together a couple of master level judges seemds sort of counterproductive to me. One of the things that NCRS needs to do is educate our less experiences judges. The best way to learn is by doing.

The idea that we always want to use the most experienced judges available is a short sighted position. We certainly want lots of experienced judges on the show field evaluating cars, but we also want those same judges inparting their knowledge to our less experienced judges at the same time.

If I may be so bold as to offer a suggestion to the NLTs, please consider this issue when making your judging / pairing selections.

[Harmon C.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

As an owner I think at the meet the owner is more interested in getting the award he hopes to get at the meet than having an OJ add to the deductions. When he gets home he is interested in improving his car when the judging sheets get back. As judges we all miss things each time we judge so if six eyes rather than four are inspecting every item I think the owner is not being helped that day. It is Ok for the OJ to ask why a deduction was not made but at the point the OJ is taking off more points than the judges maybe the team leader has the wrong person as the judge. If the OJ's input adds 15 points to the deductions and the owner gets a second flight because of it I think it is wrong. The judges need to temper the deductions added by an OJ's input. I have helped run the pencil (OJ)for other master judges that are running late and I have finished. I don't see anything and don't look at the items when doing this because I think two master judges is enough on one car. If we have three man teams they will deduct more points.

[Terry M.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

No "perhaps" about it, Ed. Evaluating the "people skills" of the judges is one of the roles of the NTL, and I have been present when the current National Judging chairman (NJC) and the previous NJC said exactly that to the assembled NTLs. Also your second from the last paragraph is almost word for word from both of those NJC as well. However, it cannot be said often enough.

I can guarantee you that any judge who causes "situations," or "issues" as some call them, will not judge for long unless the NTL has masochistic tendencies.

Well said Ed.

[Edward M.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

Gracias Terry. Nice to see you again at the NCM. That was a fun event.

[Terry M.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

Nice seeing you too. They have done a magnificent job with the addition, and a great job with that event. A lot of hard work went into each. The motor sports park will prove a valuable addition as well. I think the future holds great things for the NCM.

[Henry S.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

As an owner I think at the meet the owner is more interested in getting the award he hopes to get at the meet than having an OJ add to the deductions. When he gets home he is interested in improving his car when the judging sheets get back. As judges we all miss things each time we judge so if six eyes rather than four are inspecting every item I think the owner is not being helped that day. It is Ok for the OJ to ask why a deduction was not made but at the point the OJ is taking off more points than the judges maybe the team leader has the wrong person as the judge. If the OJ's input adds 15 points to the deductions and the owner gets a second flight because of it I think it is wrong. The judges need to temper the deductions added by an OJ's input. I have helped run the pencil (OJ)for other master judges that are running late and I have finished. I don't see anything and don't look at the items when doing this because I think two master judges is enough on one car. If we have three man teams they will deduct more points.

Being relatively new to the hobby my one and only time as a judge was as an OJ at the St. Charles National. That experience to me was VERY POSITIVE and I felt one reason was that the judges I was with explained each detail to me (as time permitted). They made me feel a "part of the team".

I had a buddy take his 66 to BG three years in a row to try for a Gold. Each time he came back home with a list of items to "fix" only to go back the next year to a different set of judges and a new "list" of mistakes. After the 3rd trip he gave up never to go back. His 66 wasn't that far off but his experience left him with a sour taste for BG.

It depends on what the goal is. From a newbies point of view if something isn't correct on my car I don't care who points it out, I want it to be right.

As Edward pointed out that's my 1.5 cent worth also.

[Jack H.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

One additional thought for you NLTs, pairing together a couple of master level judges seemds sort of counterproductive to me. One of the things that NCRS needs to do is educate our less experiences judges. The best way to learn is by doing.

There are pro and con issues here...

On one hand we WANT to teach/train our pool of novice judges and the best way to do that is via OJT (on the job training). Schools, no matter how elegant, just don't embody all the variance issues that we typically encounter on the judging field.

On the other hand, judging is a service by members for members and we have an obligation to do both the owner and the car fair service AND uphold our standards. NOBODY knows it all and two senior judges are typically better at wringing out the details than one senior judge and a novice put into the role of Team Judge vs. Observer Judge.

So, I believe we do better service to the car, owner, and our standards when we properly assign judges especially at Regional/National meets where the judging outcome is important to the car's campaign objectives.

Pairing a senior judge with a novice (BOTH serving in team judge roles) works GREAT at the Chapter level! It's the key factor in our sucess at bringing new chapters up to speed, especially those remote to North America in Europe and the Pacific Basin.

But, I have reservations when I see this kind of pairing at National Meets where the stakes are higher to the car/owner... Placing a visiting judge who's admitedly traveled a LONG distance to come and learn in the role of OJ is A-OK in my book. But, assigning them as a full team judge at this meet level, even with a very experienced partner, is questionable in my opinion...

[Edward M.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

Lyle;

I agree, there are many owners who are "in it for the points".

But that doesn't mean that NCRS should cater to them. The goal is the restoration and preservation of Corvettes. If we let some things go because "the real judges" didn't catch it, we are doing a disservice to the owner (although he/she may disagree), and the hobby.

Now, having said that, there is a fine line between giving the owner the benefit of the doubt on a questionable item, and just plain ignoring a incorrect item.

I have heard many owners say after the fact that "the judges missed this". Our goal (which we all know is unattainable) is the the judges don't miss anything.

I even recall one instance on a show field where a spectator asked one of the judges a question about a particular item on a car. That question was prompted by the spectator's desire to learn, but it ultimately resulted in a deduction for an item that the judges had missed. The owner laughed and then said "I thought I was going to get away with that one."

Our standards are high; they have to be. An NCRS award would be worth much less if they were not.

[Roy S.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

Great comments guys and spot on, as the National Judging Chairman I can tell you my biggest concern is that the OJ is not perceived as a third judge the owner needs to deal with. May sound harsh but it is a fact, the judging day is stressful for owners.Try saying something to a mother that is negative about her child. I will caution stand out of arms reach when you make that comment. T

TTeams to observe the judging process on the field. While not involved in the actual scoring, TT

[Edward M.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

One additional thought for you NLTs, pairing together a couple of master level judges seemds sort of counterproductive to me. One of the things that NCRS needs to do is educate our less experiences judges. The best way to learn is by doing.

There are pro and con issues here...

On one hand we WANT to teach/train our pool of novice judges and the best way to do that is via OJT (on the job training). Schools, no matter how elegant, just don't embody all the variance issues that we typically encounter on the judging field.

On the other hand, judging is a service by members for members and we have an obligation to do both the owner and the car fair service AND uphold our standards. NOBODY knows it all and two senior judges are typically better at wringing out the details than one senior judge and a novice put into the role of Team Judge vs. Observer Judge.

So, I believe we do better service to the car, owner, and our standards when we properly assign judges especially at Regional/National meets where the judging outcome is important to the car's campaign objectives.

Pairing a senior judge with a novice (BOTH serving in team judge roles) works GREAT at the Chapter level! It's the key factor in our sucess at bringing new chapters up to speed, especially those remote to North America in Europe and the Pacific Basin.

But, I have reservations when I see this kind of pairing at National Meets where the stakes are higher to the car/owner... Placing a visiting judge who's admitedly traveled a LONG distance to come and learn in the role of OJ is A-OK in my book. But, assigning them as a full team judge at this meet level, even with a very experienced partner, is questionable in my opinion...

Jack;

I think you and I will agree to disagree on this.

However, I wasn't suggesting that we pair a Master Judge and a novice at the Regional / National level. What exactly is a novice judge?

Lets just say, for the sake of this discussion, that a novice judge is a judge with 30 or less judging points. Lets take it further and say that a judge with 31-70 points is a mid-level experienced judge, and one with 71-99 points is an experienced judge. 100+ is obviously Master.

OK, here is what I am suggesting: At a regional level event, pair a master with a mid-level or an experienced judge. At the national, pair a master with an experienced or another master level. At the chapter level, pair your most experienced judge available with your least experienced judge.

I think that accomplishes both of our goals.

[Ara G.]

Re: Proper role for an OJ

Troy, I too was in a similar position last year at Kissimmee. I volunteered to be an OJ. I was matched up with Joe Scafidi and Frank Aveni. I could tell that they both were from the Northeast, as I was, and knew we'd get along. These two guys taught me so much, but most importantly they educated me on why a part was correct and why another part was incorrect. They took the time to explain it to me, as opposed to just saying "it's wrong". That was an invaluable experience for me. I chimed in from time to time, inquiring into the proper routing of wiring, finish on bolts, etc...I wasn't thinking they missed something, but rather I had thought a particular bolt should be one finish and it wasn't - so I asked them.
Completely agree with the other posts that there are those who are "points getters" and there arethose who want their car to as close to TFP as possible. I am having my car judged at Kissimmee for the first time and I won't lie to you, my goal is to come home with a Top Flight. But that is not the only reason I am bringing it. I want to get my car as "correct" as possible. Not for a judge, but for my own satisfaction in knowing that my car is among the best representatives of it's breed. Sorry for the rambling, but I had to share my 1/5 cent. regards ARA