Photos of black death for a race engine

[Jerry G.]

I've torn down my 327 road race motor after and oiling system related failure. These wet sump systems take some sorting to get right. At this point it looks like I'll need a new pan, sleeve two cylinders in the block, two connecting rods two pistons two pins a camshaft, oil pump and various and sundry bearings and gaskets. I'm thinking Lunaty lightweight pro series 4340 nitrated crank but I don't see any 3.25 inch stroke cranks. I guess it's just old. I don't want to do a custom crank. Anybody have expirience with sleeves in a racing application? opps I'm having problems photo size.

[Jerry G.]

Re:hopefully there will be photos attached

I have compressed the photos. The first on is what was in the bottom of the pan when I removed it and the second is the crank.

[William L.]

Re: hopefully there will be photos attached

I have compressed the photos. The first on is what was in the bottom of the pan when I removed it and the second is the crank.

OOOOOCH! That hurts....

[Clem Z.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

I've torn down my 327 road race motor after and oiling system related failure. These wet sump systems take some sorting to get right. At this point it looks like I'll need a new pan, sleeve two cylinders in the block, two connecting rods two pistons two pins a camshaft, oil pump and various and sundry bearings and gaskets. I'm thinking Lunaty lightweight pro series 4340 nitrated crank but I don't see any 3.25 inch stroke cranks. I guess it's just old. I don't want to do a custom crank. Anybody have expirience with sleeves in a racing application? opps I'm having problems photo size.

stepped sleeves are no problem in a race engine.

[Duke W.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

From what I can see the journal doesn't look like it has any damage associated with a bearing seizure.

Maybe it was simply a rod failure. What kind of rods were you using?

Duke

[Michael H.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

From what I can see the journal doesn't look like it has any damage associated with a bearing seizure.

Maybe it was simply a rod failure. What kind of rods were you using?

Duke

I dunno Duke. That journal looks like it was mighty warm, oil starved. Looks a bit blue? That bearing was ailing for a while before it popped.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

From what I can see the journal doesn't look like it has any damage associated with a bearing seizure.

Maybe it was simply a rod failure. What kind of rods were you using?

Duke

the rod pieces in the pan look pretty blue to me.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

jerry i think i would start off with new pieces and use that one for a spare. all the damage can be fixed BUT if something happens again you will wonder "IF I".

[Jerry G.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

From what I can see the journal doesn't look like it has any damage associated with a bearing seizure.

Maybe it was simply a rod failure. What kind of rods were you using?

Duke

I use Carillo rods. The mains look fine. The oil supply wasn't contaminated, With the amount of blue on the rod journal I am leary that the crank is usable. What do you guys think?

[Jerry G.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

jerry i think i would start off with new pieces and use that one for a spare. all the damage can be fixed BUT if something happens again you will wonder "IF I".

I agree. I think the block can be reused, the cam is dead , the crank is dead and obiously the two rods and pistons and pan and pump are dead, the heads are good and one valve needs replacing. Anybody got a motor they want to sell me?

[Clem Z.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

I agree. I think the block can be reused, the cam is dead , the crank is dead and obiously the two rods and pistons and pan and pump are dead, the heads are good and one valve needs replacing. Anybody got a motor they want to sell me?

can the oil cooler be cleaned ? i would put the oil filter after the oil cooler to make sure no junk get into the new engine.

[Duke W.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

I suggest you mic the journal and take some more photos when the crank is removed. Did both rods break? Gather up the pieces, put them together and take more photos - like what the FAA does when they investigate aircraft accidents.

When an engine let's go at high revs it can be difficult to determine the primary cause due to the extensive consequential damage.

If a bearing seizes, the bottom end of the rod is sometimes still on the journal and might be difficult to remove, and once removed the journal would be severely scored as would the rod bearing bore. Also, other bearings/journals would likely show evidence of oil starvation. If not, then look for another cause.

The fact that the big end is in multiple pieces and the cap appears to be bent leads me to believe that something other than oil starvation is the culprit.

The damage looks similar to what happened to my EP TR3 back in the seventies. Our conclusion (included talking to some TRW Space Systems Group failure analysis engineers) was that the primary cause was a rod bolt failure.

Duke

[Jerry G.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

can the oil cooler be cleaned ? i would put the oil filter after the oil cooler to make sure no junk get into the new engine.

Excellent idea, thank you. I cut open the filter and it appears that no particles got past the filter so the cooler which is downstream of the fiter should be OK BUT. You are so right. I have a Petersen 5 micron inline filter I will put downstream of the cooler just in case. Thanks good catch.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

I suggest you mic the journal and take some more photos when the crank is removed. Did both rods break? Gather up the pieces, put them together and take more photos - like what the FAA does when they investigate aircraft accidents.

When an engine let's go at high revs it can be difficult to determine the primary cause due to the extensive consequential damage.

If a bearing seizes, the bottom end of the rod is sometimes still on the journal and might be difficult to remove, and once removed the journal would be severely scored as would the rod bearing bore. Also, other bearings/journals would likely show evidence of oil starvation. If not, then look for another cause.

The fact that the big end is in multiple pieces and the cap appears to be bent leads me to believe that something other than oil starvation is the culprit.

The damage looks similar to what happened to my EP TR3 back in the seventies. Our conclusion (included talking to some TRW Space Systems Group failure analysis engineers) was that the primary cause was a rod bolt failure.

Duke

if a rod bolt breaks the crank should show no discoloration as that would be a clean break. looks like the crank is discolored on both sides of the throw. i had a carillo rod break the same way in a engine due to lack of oil flow. i fixed the oil flow problem by feeding the main oil gallery from both ends because the main oil gallery also fed the lifters and there is were the internal oil leak was coming from preventing the rotating assy from getting enough oil. this is what happens when you are plowing new ground as this was a 2 liter 4 cylinder cavalier engine making about 275 HP. since that bow tie block has the oil feed opening in the front of the main oil gallery i would feed the engine there to cut down on the pumping losses thru all the turns in the oil gallery running from the filter boss. feed the accusump thru the adapter on the oil filter boss

[Duke W.]

Re: Photos of black death for a race engine

The lighting and focus of the photo isn't sufficient for me to tell if the journal is "blued" from excessive heat. All I can see is there there doens't appear to be any significant scoring.

Duke