NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

[John S.]

Can I get some advice on judging a 63 on whether repro knock offs will detract from judging? I know they were not on delivered cars in 63, but see many with them that say NCRS top flight cars. What is the best route? I like the look but know they are not correct, but does one lose points?

[Donald T.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

John,

It's a large deduction. I don't have a 63 manual but assuming it is the same for 65, then there are 40 originality points and 35 condition points available for the wheels, and you lose them all. Although it would still be possible to Top Flight, that's a hit you don't want to take. The hit for repros wouldn't be quite as bad for a 64-66, but still significant. At my last judging meet, the judge just assumed my knock offs were reproductions and deducted 30 originality points for the wheels and spinners. Needless to say, I pointed out the error and received full credit for having originals. The point is that items like knock offs and side exhaust which are frequently added later in life will not fly under the radar.

Also, just because you see Top Flight 63s with knock offs, does not mean that they were judged with the knock offs on the car. Odds are they are swapping out the standard steel wheels and covers for judging. If you are planning on getting your car judge, then a judging guide is a must for preparation.

Don

[Tom H.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

Yep ! Full deduction for the wheels. If you are asking if you can still top flight with the knock offs ??? It depends on how correct your car is everywhere else.

[John S.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

Would one get points deducted for a vintage a/c installation?

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

Would one get points deducted for a vintage a/c installation?

Yes- almost anything that deviates from typical factory production will result in a deduction big or small. Isn't that the way it should work for the award to have some credibility?

[John D.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

John, Yes you would get a deduction for any non factory installed option. Non-GM replacement parts which are incorrect are subject to a 100% deduction on both originalilty and condition. So a repro AC set up would be a big hit.
I strongly suggest you buy the Judging Reference manual from NCRS. It will be a big help to you. Also I wouldn't get a 63 flight judged with knockoffs no matter if they were repro or original.
My 63 had repro knockoffs for 20 years or so. But when we did a lot of the car over again the knockoffs went out the door and the original wheels& wheel covers, proper weights, etc went back on. Good luck, JD

[John S.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

John D,
Thanks. I did buy the 63 white /red coupe, auto, p/s, p/b original 39,000 mi. car with paperwork, orig window sticker, bill of sale, etc. Car was top flight in 2002 so just want to clean it up a bit and freshen, but leave original as it is really nice with no restoration done other than one repaint of just exterior.
The 63 roadster F.I. car was not good enough to consider.
Appreciate your help. and advice.
John

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

Non-GM replacement parts which are incorrect are subject to a 100% deduction on both originalilty and condition.

That is not a correct statement and contravenes the fundamentals of the judging process. Many repro parts are not 'correct' and were certainly not made by GM. Very few parts deviate from original to a degree that they would receive anywhere near a complete deduct.

[Joel F.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

Would one get points deducted for a vintage a/c installation?

John,

You should ask the team lead for the year you are interested in what the deduction might be. From what I understand (admittedly not everything), Vintage Air and similar owner inspired additions result in deductions only for the stock pieces that are modified/removed/altered as a result of the installation. So in this case, you'd probably loose a couple points for a hole in the firewall, some points for drilling for the vents, any changes made to the pulley arrangement, etc. but nothing for the presences of the aftermarket pieces unless you had to remove something stock to put in it's place.

Now if you replaced a factory A/C with Vintage Air I believe you'd loose a lot more points, but I think you are referring to adding air to a non-A/C car.

Joel

[John D.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

That is not a correct statement and contravenes the fundamentals of the judging process. Many repro parts are not 'correct' and were certainly not made by GM. Very few parts deviate from original to a degree that they would receive anywhere near a complete deduct.

Michael, I should have said that my statement was quoted from the Judging Reference manual. I will get it and come back with a page number for.

Page 23. #10. Incorrect replacement parts.

[Jack H.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

I don't think he needs to check with the National Team Leader...

Carlton's Judging Guide books have been pretty straight forward and to the point! They instruct judges to take a FULL deduction on '63 Corvettes equipped with KO wheels PERIOD. Many have tried to argue their car is an exception, but there are only 3-4 bona fide known cases of '63 cars with KO's and they were either built to support GM 'brass' or go to various industry shows.

On the issue of add-in A/C, that's another cut & dry issue. Such is obviously a dealer/owner insprired addition/deletion to the car's factory original configuration and the NCRS Judging Reference Manual is pretty clear requiring judges to take FULL DEDUCTIONS for all aspects of the car affected by this kind of alteration.

Bottom line, no need to call/email the NTL and really no need to ask in a post like this. The policy is in the book(s) making it a simple matter of reading the Judging Guide and the NCRS Judging Reference Manual.

[Clark K.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

There is a large variance between what NCRS wants in a Top Flight car and what the market wants. You will have to decide what you want in your Sting Ray. Your car can be both, if you select the right car. If you are going to have your purchase flight judged, take the NCRS suggestions that came in your new member packet and buy the recommended manuals pertaining to your model Corvette.

The very top end Sting Rays, many believe, MUST have glossy paint, KO wheels, and side exhaust. Top end cars are the very best ones, usually big blocks, but not always. This nearly always means that the car needs the NCRS discouraged "added options". ProTeam, the dealer who sold my car to me, told me that they always add these two items to their top end cars. They tell me that the buyers want these "options" regardless of whether they were originally factory installed.

It is kind of the same dilemma for show quality paint. Not many buyers want a $90K-$150K Sting Ray with what I call a "NCRS ****ty paint job". The cars for sale with a glossy two-stage urethane finish will sell first almost every time and for more money.

Since I do not have the '63 JG, I do not know what the deduction would be for a '63 with repo KO's. What I can tell you is that the JG for for '65 Corvettes states a standard 75% originality point deduction for repro KO wheels. It is probably the same for both models. That means 22 points deducted out of 30 ORIGINALITY points for the repro wheel (& weights, valve stems, and caps). An additional 8 of 10 originality points are deducted for the repro spinners. These deductions are in the originality category, only. There are 25 condition points for the wheels, etc. and 10 condition points for the spinners, too. There is no deduction on condition if the wheels and spinners are like-new. So, be aware that you only lose 75% originality points, not condition points, for repro KO wheels.

My 1965 L76 A/C Coupe is "living proof" that a car can take Top Flight with reproduction KO wheels, added side exhaust, and "over-restored" (too glossy) paint. These three items caused my car a loss of 130 originality points. But, with a car that aced the operations section and nearly aced the interior section of the judging, these hits were manageable. My car tallied 96.3% to take Top Flight at the chapter level. -Clark

[Michael W.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

Michael, I should have said that my statement was quoted from the Judging Reference manual. I will get it and come back with a page number for.

Page 23. #10. Incorrect replacement parts.

For the benefit of all, please quote the sentence or paragraph (in full) that leads you to believe that a component with deviations from typical factory production should get a full deduction. This is excepting engine stamp pads of course.

Thanks.

[Clark K.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

To GM, the KO wheels were called P48 Wheel, Cast Aluminum, Quick Take-Off. They were listed as an option for the 1963 Corvette. Therein lies the problem. Many feel that since it was an advertised option, they should be allowed.

In fact, the P48 wheels were one of three major features advertised for the all-new Sting Ray. The factory installed the P48 wheels on the pilot cars that went to the fall 1962 auto shows in Turin, Paris, and London. Period photos show a two-bar, rather than the later three-bar, spinners on these early cars, but they all had the P48 wheels.

I just referred to the book: The Complete Corvette Restoration & Technical Guide - Vol. 2 by Noland Adams. It does NOT supplant the NCRS JG's for each model. Now, with that written, here is what Mr. Adams, an aknowledged expert, has to write about '63 KO wheels on the first column of page 157: "...the St. Louis plant did install P48 wheels on a few 1963 Corvettes. The number of cars so-equipped was either 12 or 13;...factory personnel remember the flat tires in the parking lot and recall that the P48 wheels were replaced with standard wheels and wheelcovers."

Also on page 157, 2nd column, Mr. Adams states: "As far as we can determine, no 1963 Corvettes were delivered with factory-installed P48 wheels. The only possible exception to this would be pilot-line cars with serial numbers 100001 to 100025."

This was due to the porosity (holes = poor quality) of the castings from the supplier (Kelsey-Hayes?). Mr. Adams goes on to write that any 1963 Corvette with KO wheels at that time, other than the pilot-line cars mentioned above, would be dealer installed, not factory installed. Just remember his written words, "as far as we can determine". There are always caveats.

This information is, most likely, the basis of the 1963 JG calling for a total deduction of originality points for KO wheels, even if they are the original Kelsey-Hayes models and in the correct configuration (no paint, etc.).
-Clark

[John H.]

Re: NCRS judging for 63 with repro knock offs

Would one get points deducted for a vintage a/c installation?

Yes. At a minimum, there would be full deductions for all the factory heater system parts that are missing, not for the added Vintage Air A/C parts. Another member on this board has a '67 with Vintage Air that has Top-Flighted several times.