More oil bidness

[William F.]

Sorry if this is a repeat of a "reply" I made about subject, but thought I might get more response with "new thread."
Called a Valvoline tech rep to ask about correct oil for older Corvettes. Conversation went something like this:Tech rep: " I bet you're going to ask about ZDDP.If you're breaking in a new engine, use racing oil which has most ZDDP. If an older already broken in engine, use Max Life which has adequate mZDDP. Need for CJ-diesel type oil is an internet myth." When I told him an NRCS member with advanced engineering degrees recommended CJ oils, rep replied,
"Where's his lab, mine is right next door."
Since Valvoline sells both kinds of oil ,doesn't seem to be a reason for them to mislead.
Why don't some of you other members talk to tech reps from other oil companies and see what they say.

[Duke W.]

Re: More oil bidness

"Tech rep", huh? My "lab" is every major oil company lab that certifies a product to API C-category specs, which insures that the oil I use in my vintage cars with sliding surface valve trains has the "traditional" level of anti-wear additive.

Where is this "tech rep's" in-depth article on engine oil backed up with sources? Mine's here:

http://www.westcoastwillys.com/WCW_Sept08_small.pdf (Oil article starts on Page 3.)

Why don't you download it, read it as many times as needed to fully digest it, then send it to your "tech rep" and have him offer a written rebutal that you can add to this thread.

I also suggest you do a little googling and find out the API service category and analysis (particularly the P concentration) of Valvoline Max Life. Also download and read the API 1509 document so you understand the P limitations.

I guess if I needed a ten-buck-an-hour job, I have sufficient credentials to have Valvoline hire me as a "tech rep".

The bottom line is everyone has to make their own choice. Read what I have to say - then gather any other information you deem credible, and make your choice.

The only thing that amazes me is that someone can have access to the information I have presented including the information sources, then talk to some anonymous cyberspace source or marketing guy on the phone who poo-poos what I have presented (without having the foggiest idea what), and then actually consider them to be credible.

As I said in the article, read the source documents and you will become your own oil expert with the Internet at your disposal to find credible engine oil technical information starting with the technical specification sheets of any engine oil product you consider buying.

Duke

[Dick W.]

Re: More oil bidness

And ask him why, when I was a director of maintenance for a fleet, when I switched from Rotella to Valvoline, I lost 6 engines in 6 months due to bearing failure? Had not had an engine failure in the 12 months prior.

[William F.]

Re: More oil bidness

Duke and Dick,

I respect your arguments but why would Valvoline recommend Max Life and state that CJ oils are not appropriate for vintage Corvettes when they make money on both kinds of oil? I'm sure the engineers tell the tech rep how to answer this question about adequate ZDDP that they say they have to answer 60 times a day.Dick, what kind of engines were in the fleet that had bearing problems with Valvoline?
I still say, call the other oil companies, talk to engineers or whoever if you don't trust the tech rep and report what they say. I just want to know what the current thinking is.

[Jim D.]

Re: More oil bidness

I wonder how much education a "tech. rep." job requires? I'll bet it's the next promotional spot above "janitor". The trouble with calling companies is that you're at the mercy of whoever happens to be closest to the phone when it rings. I'm confident in Duke's recommendations.

[Duke W.]

Re: More oil bidness

Duke and Dick,

I respect your arguments but why would Valvoline recommend Max Life and state that CJ oils are not appropriate for vintage Corvettes when they make money on both kinds of oil? I'm sure the engineers tell the tech rep how to answer this question about adequate ZDDP that they say they have to answer 60 times a day.Dick, what kind of engines were in the fleet that had bearing problems with Valvoline?
I still say, call the other oil companies, talk to engineers or whoever if you don't trust the tech rep and report what they say. I just want to know what the current thinking is.

How do you expect any of us to know why some guy says whatever he says. Ask them! Ask them to provide a detailed technical argument justifying use of their recommended product as I provided for the use of C-category oil.

Did you read and understand the engine article that I wrote either in The Corvette Restorer or the link I provided earlier in this thread? Do you have a technically rational basis to take issue with any of the data or conclusions I presented?

I understand that Chevron has a scheduled engine oil presentation at the the National Convention next month, and I expect the presenter will be technically qualified (even if he has a marketing related job title) to discuss the subject.

I won't be there, but perhaps someone can summarize the presentation and point out any information/conclusions differences relative to what I have provided to NCRS in my article.

In the meantime, you can conduct a phone survey, if you wish, and tell us what everyone has to say and why.

Duke

P. S. Here is the product data sheet for Valvoline Max Life engine oil.

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/Maxlife.pdf

Anyone feel free to comment on whether they consider this to be a suitable or unsuitable engine oil for vintage Corvettes and why.

[William F.]

Re: More oil bidness

Duke, et al.,
I took my own challenge and talked to Shell. They do recommend Rotella T for vintage flat tappet applications. Interesting that Rotella is certified for spark as well as compression applications-maybe Valvoline's diesel oil isn't-couldn't tell from their web site and haven't looked at a bottle. Shell also e-mailed me articles from Comp cams and Hot Rod mag concerning their like of CJ-4 oils due to more ZDDP. So; I'll probly use Rotella T in my newly acquire 67 300 hp. For the record, I used Rotella T in my previous 66 L79. Just wanted to play "Devil's advocate" to make sure I was doing the right thing with my new baby. Certainly hope someone posts the upcoming Chevron oil comments.

[Duke W.]

Re: More oil bidness

You should read my article, too. I gather from your posts that you have never read it or you've forgotten some of its key points - like secondary API classifications on primary C-category oil and the insignificance of brands.

Valvoline is the only major oil marketer I know of that is marketing an engine oil for "older cars", so they have a vested interest in pushing Max Life to vintage car owners. But looking at the data sheet shows that it's basically just another SM oil with signficantly less anti-wear additive than C-category oils.

And don't expect Chevron, Mobil, or Shell to mount a major marketing campaign to sell Delo, Delvac, or Rotella to vintage car owners.

One of the key premises of marketing is to focus your message. The Majors have spent decades building their brands in the very competititive HD engine oil market, and they are not going to dilute their message by publically lauding the benefits of their API C-category product for vintage car engines. Even if every vintage car owner switched to their C-category products it wouldn't even make a blip on the sales charts.

So it's up to vintage car owners to understand the differences in lubrication requirements of their vintage engines versus modern engines, the differences in API service categories and how they have changed over time, and choose the best currently available engine oil products for their vintage cars.

I have provided this education to NCRS, but as the old saying goes: You can lead the horses to water, but it's up to them to take a drink!

Duke

[William F.]

Re: More oil bidness

Duke,
I did read your article. Did you read my last post where I essentially came to agree?Sometimes best to see all sides of an issue and compare info before making a decision. As Tony Soprano says,"Nothing personal."

[Dick W.]

Re: More oil bidness

Duke and Dick,

I respect your arguments but why would Valvoline recommend Max Life and state that CJ oils are not appropriate for vintage Corvettes when they make money on both kinds of oil? I'm sure the engineers tell the tech rep how to answer this question about adequate ZDDP that they say they have to answer 60 times a day.Dick, what kind of engines were in the fleet that had bearing problems with Valvoline?
I still say, call the other oil companies, talk to engineers or whoever if you don't trust the tech rep and report what they say. I just want to know what the current thinking is.

Mack, they were notorious for main bearing problems. With rotella we had engines over 300k with no bearing problems, with Valvoline, lost bearings in 50k engines.