10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel??? - NCRS Discussion Boards

10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

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  • Joe C.
    Expired
    • August 31, 1999
    • 4598

    #31
    Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

    The most effective way to cool an intake manifold is to provide an air gap between it and the lifter gallery. There are some insulating (possibly phenolic) intake/plenum gaskets used by the ricers, but I have not been able to find any for V-8 engines. The primary reason that some intake manifolds were provided with a splash pan, was to prevent the oil splash from "coking" when exposed to the extreme heat of the exhaust crossover passage in the intake manifold. Intakes without exhaust crossover (e.g. Rochester fuel injection plenums, and aftermarket intakes without carburetor heat) NEVER were provided with splash pans, because their purpose in that instance would be moot. The intake manifold, once in direct contact with the engine block, will quickly achieve the same temperature due to conduction, that's why an air gap is necessary.

    I see merit in Bill's cool can idea, which has worked for years. Another idea worth trying would be to insulate the fuel lines. Finally, you should consider insulating coatings for the fuel carrying components of the fuel injection unit. These coatings are very effective in lowering temps when applied to combustion chambers and piston crowns.

    If you add a heat exchanger to the fuel line in a hot environment, I would think that it would have opposite the desired effect, since it will transfer heat from the engine compartment to the cooler fuel. The fuel is (relatively) cool while it is in the tank, the best way to prevent boiling (especially with side exhaust) is to insulate the fuel line from the tank, all the way to the induction system.

    I don't like the idea of painting the inside of any engine with varnish! Its usefulness might be marginal on a full race engine using a high volume oil pump, but certainly a waste of time on any engine using a standard volume pump.
    Last edited by Joe C.; June 8, 2009, 12:15 PM.

    Comment

    • Bruce B.
      Extremely Frequent Poster
      • May 31, 1996
      • 2930

      #32
      Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

      Clem,
      The full gasket is almost like the phenolic blocks which go under the carb.
      Also being a full 1/8 " thick they do help cut down on heat transfer.
      And as you mentioned they will also keep heat radiating to the spiders, nozzle blocks and the plenum. See attached picture.
      I will do some IR gun measurements as soon as I get my D*** Powerglide back in the car.
      Attached Files

      Comment

      • Clem Z.
        Expired
        • December 31, 2005
        • 9427

        #33
        Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

        Originally posted by Bruce Bursten (27670)
        Clem,
        The full gasket is almost like the phenolic blocks which go under the carb.
        Also being a full 1/8 " thick they do help cut down on heat transfer.
        And as you mentioned they will also keep heat radiating to the spiders, nozzle blocks and the plenum. See attached picture.
        I will do some IR gun measurements as soon as I get my D*** Powerglide back in the car.
        the engine block and heads should be close to the running temp of the engine but i would think the FI baseplate in direct contact with the oil which on most engines is 20+ degrees hotter than the coolant could radiate more heat into the FI spider. let me know what you see with a IR gun.

        Comment

        • Bill B.
          Very Frequent User
          • November 30, 1993
          • 192

          #34
          Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

          Originally posted by Bruce Bursten (27670)
          Clem,
          The full gasket is almost like the phenolic blocks which go under the carb.
          Also being a full 1/8 " thick they do help cut down on heat transfer.
          And as you mentioned they will also keep heat radiating to the spiders, nozzle blocks and the plenum. See attached picture.
          I will do some IR gun measurements as soon as I get my D*** Powerglide back in the car.
          Bruce - I would make the trip to help you install that powerglide if you were a little closer (FL to OH)....sorry, wish you luck and after you give her a shake down, will be looking forward to here the divination of IR gun temperatures. Hope everything works out smoothly....

          We all appreciate it, Bill

          Comment

          • Bruce B.
            Extremely Frequent Poster
            • May 31, 1996
            • 2930

            #35
            Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

            Bill,
            Thanks for your support.
            I went out and bought a nice tall transmission jack and it made taking the transmission out very easy, and hopefully it will go back in easily.
            Bruce B

            Comment

            • Tom P.
              Extremely Frequent Poster
              • March 31, 1980
              • 1814

              #36
              Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

              As ethanol gas became more common, I had more problems (idle-low speed) with the FI on the 56. NOTHING, including a total rebuild of the FI unit, made an improvement. When started and run while cold, all was fine, but once the engine became thoroughly heated, the problems began.
              I put in some race gas ($6.50/gal) and the problems went away. When the race gas was run out, I put premium with ethanol back in and the same problems returned. Then I filled it up with 100-110LL Avgas ($3.39, but now $3.59/gal). Everything returned to normal operation.
              Some of the gas stations have big signs stating that their gas does not have ethanol and when I buy what is claimed to be non-ethanol gas, the engine still doesn't idle well when hot.
              So, as of now, the fix seems to be 100-110LL Avgas.

              Comment

              • Clem Z.
                Expired
                • December 31, 2005
                • 9427

                #37
                Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

                Originally posted by Tom Parsons (3491)
                As ethanol gas became more common, I had more problems (idle-low speed) with the FI on the 56. NOTHING, including a total rebuild of the FI unit, made an improvement. When started and run while cold, all was fine, but once the engine became thoroughly heated, the problems began.
                I put in some race gas ($6.50/gal) and the problems went away. When the race gas was run out, I put premium with ethanol back in and the same problems returned. Then I filled it up with 100-110LL Avgas ($3.39, but now $3.59/gal). Everything returned to normal operation.
                Some of the gas stations have big signs stating that their gas does not have ethanol and when I buy what is claimed to be non-ethanol gas, the engine still doesn't idle well when hot.
                So, as of now, the fix seems to be 100-110LL Avgas.
                the 100 LL is a gasoline that is controlled by federal specs so every drop you get will be the same. that can not be said about pump gas because a lot of the additives and mixing is done at the local fuel bulk plant and the could not be as precise

                Comment

                • Bill B.
                  Very Frequent User
                  • November 30, 1993
                  • 192

                  #38
                  Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

                  I'm curious, has anyone tried Shell's Nitrogen enhanced gasoline? How does this compare to ethanol based fuels, is their any improvement in idle quality etc.?

                  Bill

                  Comment

                  • Duke W.
                    Beyond Control Poster
                    • December 31, 1992
                    • 15611

                    #39
                    Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

                    Originally posted by Bill Berger (23665)
                    I'm curious, has anyone tried Shell's Nitrogen enhanced gasoline? How does this compare to ethanol based fuels, is their any improvement in idle quality etc.?

                    Bill
                    I have yet to hear a legitimate explanation of what "nitrogen enhanced gasoline" actually is or its benefits. Commercial gasoline has to meet very tight federal specs, and there are at least a couple of dozen different specs based on region and/or time of year, and most of these specs require the use of up to 10 percent ethanol, year round.

                    Until I get a proper explanation, I consider the above to be just marketing hype.

                    I think I'll come up with a "synthetic gasoline" marketing campaign. Maybe it will be a big money maker. I'm sure that those who insist on "synthetic" oil and "synthetic" brake fluid will go for it bigtime.

                    ...which reminds me. I have yet to find "synthetic" anti-freeze, so there is another marketing opportunity.

                    Duke
                    Last edited by Duke W.; June 9, 2009, 02:22 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Paul Y.
                      Very Frequent User
                      • September 30, 1982
                      • 570

                      #40
                      Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

                      I finished the restoration of my 63 Fuely last April and have had good success in driving it with out too much trouble. I made a little insulator to lie under the spider out of a product called Second Skin. I had a little left over from insulating under the carpet and I took the paper off the sticky side and put two together with the foil facing out. I cut it to fit under the spider and on top of the adapter. I can't tell much difference in the hot start from when I last drove it 21 years ago. It feels more like the check valve in the spider is more reluctant to open than the fuel percolating. I have put over 2K miles on it since April and drive it several times a week in all temperature. It has been cool here in Denver lately though. The Second Skin is made out of butyll and heavy foil with the butyl side having adhesive. As stated before, the 63-65 units are not as vulnerable to prolonged heat soak because of the return line at the spider to give cooler fuel sooner from the fuel bowl. Oh by the way, I just run Premium pump gas. Love that FI. Paul
                      Attached Files
                      It's a good life!














                      Comment

                      • Bill B.
                        Very Frequent User
                        • November 30, 1993
                        • 192

                        #41
                        Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

                        Originally posted by Paul Young (5962)
                        I finished the restoration of my 63 Fuely last April and have had good success in driving it with out too much trouble. I made a little insulator to lie under the spider out of a product called Second Skin. I had a little left over from insulating under the carpet and I took the paper off the sticky side and put two together with the foil facing out. I cut it to fit under the spider and on top of the adapter. I can't tell much difference in the hot start from when I last drove it 21 years ago. It feels more like the check valve in the spider is more reluctant to open than the fuel percolating. I have put over 2K miles on it since April and drive it several times a week in all temperature. It has been cool here in Denver lately though. The Second Skin is made out of butyll and heavy foil with the butyl side having adhesive. As stated before, the 63-65 units are not as vulnerable to prolonged heat soak because of the return line at the spider to give cooler fuel sooner from the fuel bowl. Oh by the way, I just run Premium pump gas. Love that FI. Paul
                        Paul - I like your attitude, Thats what we all are looking for, pure enjoyment, hate to be "consumed" trying to make alternations so we can enjoy our rides. Tinkering, oh yes it's what we all enjoy doing, it seems we are spending forever trying to get our older Corvettes to run decent... and less time enjoying the ride....

                        Paul you have it.... an inspiration....Thanks, Bill

                        Comment

                        • Bill B.
                          Very Frequent User
                          • November 30, 1993
                          • 192

                          #42
                          Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

                          Originally posted by Bruce Bursten (27670)
                          Clem,
                          The full gasket is almost like the phenolic blocks which go under the carb.
                          Also being a full 1/8 " thick they do help cut down on heat transfer.
                          And as you mentioned they will also keep heat radiating to the spiders, nozzle blocks and the plenum. See attached picture.
                          I will do some IR gun measurements as soon as I get my D*** Powerglide back in the car.
                          Bruce - I've been out of town for a few weeks and missed your IR gun measurements can you direct me to the proper thread? Also what part of the engine compartment is the coolest place? I'm in the middle of a project to resolve percolating fuel so your comments/data would be greatly appreciated,

                          Bill

                          Comment

                          • Bruce B.
                            Extremely Frequent Poster
                            • May 31, 1996
                            • 2930

                            #43
                            Re: 10% Ethanol & Percolating Fuel???

                            Bill,
                            Powerglide still out of the car.
                            I should get it back next week then I will take some measurements.
                            Bruce B.

                            Comment

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