GR70-15 Radials

[William M.]

Yes, I know it's been asked before, but anything new on reproduction Goodyear "Steelgard" or Firestone "Steel Radial 500" in GR70-15? I know I can't be the only '73-'77 owner that would buy a set!

[Harmon C.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

Look at how few 73-77's have been judged at regionals and you will see the demand is small. We had so few cars now the class is 73-82 with Brian P. as our leader. Coker told me to tool up for radials costs 100 times what it costs for bias ply so that could be the problem. Not much demand and high start up cost won't fly in todays market so old original spares are the only way to go. I have a few old sets for judging.

[Jim W.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

I had my 1979 L-48 judged at the NCRS judging meet in Cape May, NJ in 2003. I had a number of flaws, Wrong valve covers, wrong Radio, (But it was a 1979 redio, but it was originally in an Oldsmobile) and I had a fiberglas rear spring and my tires. The tires I had were rpo OGR Firestone raised white letter P255/70R15, but they were not as originally equiped with the car as it was delivered. But the Judges were more than fair as they only deducted 1 point and told me of that and that is in unfair to deduct anymore as the original tires are not avaible anywhere on the market anymore.

[Terry M.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

I had my 1979 L-48 judged at the NCRS judging meet in Cape May, NJ in 2003. ..... But the Judges were more than fair as they only deducted 1 point and told me of that and that is in unfair to deduct anymore as the original tires are not avaible anywhere on the market anymore.

John Woods is rolling over in his grave.

Those judges did you, and other 1973 + Corvette owners, no favors. They made you and themselves feel good for a while, but in the end you guys will NEVER get a reproduction radial if the judges don't treat your car as they should.

For any part -- it makes no difference in the deduction if a suitable reproduction is available or not. Get that idea? The deductions should really

[Jim W.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

John Woods is rolling over in his grave.

Those judges did you, and other 1973 + Corvette owners, no favors. They made you and themselves feel good for a while, but in the end you guys will NEVER get a reproduction radial if the judges don't treat your car as they should.

For any part -- it makes no difference in the deduction if a suitable reproduction is available or not. Get that idea? The deductions should really

I understand your point Terry, but if an item does not exist, or can't be made available, then the judges deduct the full amount due. Then we're failed the very purpose of the NCRS. I/we make every attempt to stick to the judging guidelines but if even then, I/we fail to optain the 'original' part, and that/those parts don't exist anywhere in the marketplace, then I might as well put any old tires on the car, even flat tires, because I'm going to be judged as a failure on this part or that part. If here we have tires that arn't or haven't been made for the last twenty years and or a original part doesn't exist, then why are we judging a car/ any car at all. What is the purpose !

If you look at the new C-4 judging. there are a lot of the electronics and parts are gone, bam, out of existance. Again, the 1984 on up corvette's are just out of luck. The original switches and Batteries, the tires and common parts just don't exist. Then under your judgement these cars shouldn't even be allowed to be judged because almost certainly they have aftermaket parts that arn't going to judged as original, then why even bother to enter the Corvette for judging ! I've only seen one C-4 win a top flight award ? And that was really a fluke as I personally know the owner and the cars history. but in the current marketplace, your never going to find a car like that again !

I met a man who had a 77 L-82 coupe, black on black. The car only had 79 miles on it because he never drove it forward save for the time he had to power it up so it would go into the trailer. Did he win a Top flight award, absolutely ! but is this the goal for us, To mothball the cars into cacoons, only to roll them out for a shows or meets ? If so why do we give a special award to cars that have been driven to the site of the meet or show from the longest distance ?

[John H.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

Then under your judgement these cars shouldn't even be allowed to be judged because almost certainly they have aftermaket parts that arn't going to judged as original, then why even bother to enter the Corvette for judging !

No, any Corvette is always welcome on the judging field; some are easier to get to the judging standard than others, and the owner has to make those decisions as he proceeds with the restoration, understanding where the deductions are likely to be taken. The Flight Judging standard is the same for every Corvette.

[Jim W.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

No, any Corvette is always welcome on the judging field; some are easier to get to the judging standard than others, and the owner has to make those decisions as he proceeds with the restoration, understanding where the deductions are likely to be taken. The Flight Judging standard is the same for every Corvette.

Thank you ! That was the point I was trying to make. We are as a group, are trying to save as 'original' our corvettes for the future. I don't believe it means a ounce of salt to the person to whom I sold my 79. The pleasure for me was to see how close to top flight I could get the car. And if you saw my car as it sat in that shed in 1992, you wouldn't have thought it could at long last make it to second flight when all the number were counted. But to me, the second flight was just as rewarding as a top flight. It took me nine years of hunting, finding, replating restoring and in general going out of my mind as I thought up new ways to convert a new part, into a 'original' as is possible. that was my goal.

[Patrick H.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

I understand your point Terry, but if an item does not exist, or can't be made available, then the judges deduct the full amount due.

For tires at least, which was the original subject of your thread, that is not true. I would recommend you read the NCRS Judging Reference Manual, page 21, section 3. In your case you would likely receive a 60% deduction for "Current-day OEM brand, service-replacement size, bias or radial ply tires or curent equivalent sizing designation and correct whitewall width." That would also make you eligible for the full amount of condition points if that appled.

Many members go through a lot of hard work and effort to obtain and use original parts -even tires. Lyle has a few sets and I also have a set just for judging. However, my car has also been judged with the street radials on it and it still received a Top Flight.

Full deductions are not common. Even for "parts store" master cylinders I gave at least a bit of credit yesterday at our Chapter Meet as they still had a MC present. It just lost on 3-4 of the 5 aspects of FDICC. The bright orange spark plug wires though, they got a full deduct.

Patrick

[Terry M.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

Full deductions are not common. Even for "parts store" master cylinders I gave at least a bit of credit yesterday at our Chapter Meet as they still had a MC present. It just lost on 3-4 of the 5 aspects of FDICC. The bright orange spark plug wires though, they got a full deduct.

Patrick

And I was not necessarily advocating a full deduction for the tires Jim cited. However, I will repeat my point, the difficulty of obtaining the correct part should have NO bearing on the point deduction made. We judge ALL parts based on the same standard. I have a lot of sympathy for those who do not and may never have reproduction parts available to them, but our judging standard should remain the same.

At the same meet Patrick mentions the mechanical team I had wanted to take a full deduct for an alternator that had the wrong number and date. Date is a line item by itself -- full deduct there; but the alternator WAS a Delco Remy. I advised them to deduct based on configuration differences (very minor). On the other hand the same team encountered a master cylinder whose origins were NOT apparent -- may have been the same parts store as the one you had. I instructed them to make a full deduction. It is just like a non-AC Delco battery or filter. So our master cylinder situations sound like they were the same and you and I came to different conclusions. I didn't find any orange spark plug wires in my class. I am with you on that one.

[Harmon C.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

GR70-15 tires are at swap meets and I see them all the time. The person who puts together as set must get more points than a set of P-225-70 R 15's new off the shelf. The 60% hit if you drive your car to the meet is hard to take but rules are rules. I have said the chart for tire deductions was not made to include the problem of no repo for 73 and newer radials.

[Patrick H.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

And I was not necessarily advocating a full deduction for the tires Jim cited. However, I will repeat my point, the difficulty of obtaining the correct part should have NO bearing on the point deduction made. We judge ALL parts based on the same standard. I have a lot of sympathy for those who do not and may never have reproduction parts available to them, but our judging standard should remain the same.

I agree completely.

At the same meet Patrick mentions the mechanical team I had wanted to take a full deduct for an alternator that had the wrong number and date. Date is a line item by itself -- full deduct there; but the alternator WAS a Delco Remy. I advised them to deduct based on configuration differences (very minor). On the other hand the same team encountered a master cylinder whose origins were NOT apparent -- may have been the same parts store as the one you had. I instructed them to make a full deduction. It is just like a non-AC Delco battery or filter. So our master cylinder situations sound like they were the same and you and I came to different conclusions. I didn't find any orange spark plug wires in my class. I am with you on that one.

I took what I deemed to be an approprite deduction on FDICC (2 of 5 areas in my book, config and date) for incorrect Delco-Remy alternators as I thought that was fair. Actually took finish on one too.
We thought hard about the MC issue, but at least the installation was correct. And, most people had them painted black to "look" right.

Patrick

[Terry M.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

GR70-15 tires are at swap meets and I see them all the time. The person who puts together as set must get more points than a set of P-225-70 R 15's new off the shelf. The 60% hit if you drive your car to the meet is hard to take but rules are rules. I have said the chart for tire deductions was not made to include the problem of no repo for 73 and newer radials.

You are right Lyle. I do believe that deduction chart was formulated before we judged Corvettes that were originally equipped with radial tires. You know who to appeal to for a change in that.

[Terry M.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

.
We thought hard about the MC issue, but at least the installation was correct. And, most people had them painted black to "look" right.

Patrick

My MC finish was rust, mild corrosion, but still rust. No bleeders, and looked like a 1973 and up configuration. No sign of any casting information. The only thing that could have made it worse was a "Made in China" sticker.

Oh, and that one got a full deduct for the cap also. The only thing that was right about the cap was the gold finish.

[Patrick H.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

My MC finish was rust, mild corrosion, but still rust. No bleeders, and looked like a 1973 and up configuration. No sign of any casting information. The only thing that could have made it worse was a "Made in China" sticker.

Oh, and that one got a full deduct for the cap also. The only thing that was right about the cap was the gold finish.

Yeah, saw a couple like that but with a better finish.
I guess I was in a good mood yesterday.

I could have sold several stickers but didn't say a word. Just deducted the points.

Patrick

[Pat M.]

Re: GR70-15 Radials

However, I will repeat my point, the difficulty of obtaining the correct part should have NO bearing on the point deduction made. We judge ALL parts based on the same standard. I have a lot of sympathy for those who do not and may never have reproduction parts available to them, but our judging standard should remain the same.

I agree.

Whether any given car, or class of cars, can meet the highest standard should have no bearing on what the highest standard is. And there are plenty enough available points for any car, in any class, to judge very well.