Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

[William C.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

With respect to the Brazilian ethanol situation, (90% as I recall, still not 100% at least when I got involved), I just missed a forced trip to Brazil because Opel had shipped a bunch of cars to Brazil, and they were stopping on the road. Being in the electrical business at a time when computers in cars were still relatively a new thing (and when Delco Electronics NEVER had a bad computer!) I was tagged to be on standby to fly to Brazil if we had to do some onsite analysis and or defend our product design. Fortunately they found that Opel had neglected to upgrade the rubber parts in the fuel lines to deal with the ethanol befoe I got shipped down there, but it was a close call! I'd hate to think what it cost Opel for that Fiasco!l

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

I think most Middle East crude goes to Europe and Asia. Even some Alaska crude goes to Asia. Crude oil is a world commodity so the ultimate destination is usually based on local wellhead prices (which vary considerably depending on the quality of the crude) regional demand and logistics considerations.

Most West Coast refineries use Alaska crude. Gulf Coast refineries use South American and Gulf Coast crude, while Midwest and East Coast refineries use Canadian Crude with some from the Middle East.

IIRC when Brazil switched to ethanol due to their lack of crude oil and currency to import oil, the cars had small gasoline tanks for cold starts and warmup, then switched to 100 percent ethanol. That was back when most engines had carburetors, so the gasoline may not be necessary for cold starts with modern fuel injection, especially considering the tropical climate.

Brazil produces ethanol relatively cheaply from sugar cane which grows well in tropical climates, but there is a high US tariff on ethanol imported from Brazil. So much for free trade!!!

Ethanol is all about farm subsidies and placating "environmentalists".

American corn-based ethanol is more expensive per BTU at the pump than gasoline . It also acts as a cosolvent that allows the blend to absorb more water, and this may cause long term corrosion problems, which are an issue for vintage car owners.

And it appears than ethanol's 180F boiling temperature may be a factor in vapor lock on vintage engines with carburetors and Rockester FI. It's not an issue on modern cars which pump fuel from the tank at about 40 psi to the common injector rail with the excess returned to the tank. The combination of delivery pressure and rapid fuel circulation, which keeps the fuel cool does not cause vapor lock problems in modern cars.

My '88 MBZ actually has a fuel cooler - a small heat exchanger that bleeds a little chilled freon from the AC system into a small heat exchanger, so whenever the AC is on the fuel is being cooled. Those Germans think of everything!

Duke

[Patrick H.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

My '88 MBZ actually has a fuel cooler - a small heat exchanger that bleeds a little chilled freon from the AC system into a small heat exchanger, so whenever the AC is on the fuel is being cooled. Those Germans think of everything!

Duke

Here's one for you:

Does it take more energy to run the "fuel cooler" than it saves by having cool fuel?

Patrick

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

I think the reason for the fuel cooler is to help prevent vapor lock, but since the fuel is pumped from the rear of the car to the fuel distributor at about 60 psi and the excess is recirculated back to the tank it's overkill, but since Mercedes sells cars all over the world they're run into every weather condition imaginable.

Back when Mercedes was "engineered like no other car in the world" the place actually was run by engineers, not accountants or marketing guys. Of course, it showed in the prices. A new C-class today has about the same base price as my '88 190E 2.6.

You should see the throttle linkage. It probably cost more to produce than an entire Quadrajet.

Duke

[Clem Z.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

the fuel that is recirculated back to the tank keeps getting hotter and hotter because it picks up heat from the engine compartment so GM had to take the return from the engine compartment to the fuel tank on the corvettes. the heated up fuel caused vapor emission problems and maybe could cause vapor lock problems

[Robert R.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

Just read thru all the posts on this subject, and wanted to add some info, though my sources are from a different perspective.
Last year when gas prices were way over the top, the problem with our country's ethanol program became apparent. We use the wrong source / crop for our program, corn.
Using corn for auto fuel caused some unintended side effects to our economy. With the demand and expanded use of ethanol, forced corn prices to go as high as $7.00 a bushel which then triggered Beef and Pork prices to go sky high as well (feed costs for those animals of which we eat).
This affected my work as I sell food items made of Beef and Pork. The prices went sky high once word got out that corn was being divereted to make ethanol.
If our ethanol program had been using sugar cane or switch grass, which can be grown all over the south and southeastern coasts in the USA, we could have avoided the situation from last summer on gas and food prices.

Those crops, which yield 3 to 5 times the sugar verse what corn can provide, are what Brasil uses for their ethanol program.

As to how it works on our cars, I have owned a 1999 Taurus with a Flex Fuel engine and it has 180,000 miles on now. (Was a work car, now used for local trips by one of my boys). The car has had both E85 and regular gas in it all its life as it is available throughout Illinois, and Iowa for over 10 years. This engine has worked fine and had no major work done to it; only wear and tear items like belts, an altinator, fuel filters, etc. I wish the I could say the same for the body though.
So the techology is there that can work, we just need to have the right sources to maximize the effort and use.
Bob

[Jack H.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

My recollection of a 60 Minutes report was, Brazilian ethanol was available in various concentrations up to and including 100%, Clup...

We don't do that here for various 'political' reasons. The most cogniant of which is that we have another word in our language for highly concentrated ethanol: MOONSHINE!

[Jack H.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

Not all of Brazil is tropical/sub-tropical... I spent some time in Porto Allegre which isn't that far from the Argentine border. That's 'gaucho' land and they have seasons + cold weather too...

[Jack H.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

I guess I have to agree with this one (corn = wrong feedstock for ethanol)...

You can make ethanol from just about anything that's 'green'. But, we know/understand how to make corn 'jump' out of the ground in our country. So, it's a 'natural' in many respects.

But, the most FOOLISH thing I saw that corresponds to your drift (rob the food chain for fuel) is the outgoing Congress RENEWED the USDA program paying farmers not to plant!!!!

Our advantage (compared to highly populated/land scarce nations), is we have an abundance of un-used land that could be put to the plow. Brazil shares that similarity.

Yes, alcohol has a lower energy density than gasoline which is why fuel mileage drops NOTICEABLY when you burn it. If remember correctly from college chemistry, it's 25 K-cal/mole for octane vs. 18 k-Cal/mole for ethanol.

All that does is say in order to be rationally economic, the price of flex fuel has to fall BELOW gasoline by a percentage that's in lock-step to it's energy/BTU content. I'm not sure that the green protagonists understand this...

I sat through a local environmental impact meeting here that was predominately attended by concerned doctors, lawyers, Etc. The subject of flex fuel came up and there was almost UNAMIOUS agreement that it was bad...

The argument was two fold:

(1) When its used vehicles get less MPG, therefore it's bad...

(2) Survey data shows those with flex fuel vehicles 'cheat' and fill their tanks primarily with gasoline.

When it was my turn to speak (the 'show' conservative), I pointed out that MPG was NOT a 'be all' argument. Flex fuel essentially has a CO2 'neutral' foot print because when it's in it living plant form, it's absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere and giving off O2.

Gasoline doesn't do that because it grew and contributed O2 to the atmosphere EON's ago. So, burning it today is a form of robbing the past. That's NOT true about ethanol, so forget about MPG. Who cares if you use more of it, IF your concern is global warming and you believe there's a significant man-made contribution there...

That went over like a stale fart! It was TOO complicated for them to understand... They've been brain washed to think EXCLUSIVELY in terms of MPG and judge ALL competing technologies with a single yard stick!

The next comment I made was flex fuel car owners aren't STUPID. Because, there's a relative BTU/energy relation between flex fuel and gasoline, it quickly boils down to a matter economics. When flex fuel is 'appropriately' priced, those with consuming vehicles WILL use it.

But, look what happened last summer... Gasoline climbed sharply to $4+ per gallon and flex fuel followed it in LOCKSTEP. Hey, what's wrong here? Flex fuel is only 15% gasoline. It should NOT have changed price much at all...

Unfortunately, the group's conclusion to that statement was we need more government intervention, taxation, and price control to 'rationalize' the system. ABSURDITY!!!!

They just don't 'get it' that when they're driving their beloved Toyota Prius hybrids, they're actually burning gasoline and creating man made CO2. They don't get it that there's no scientific proof for cause/effect on global warming and human fosil fuel consumption...

They don't get it, that putting that 'plug in' module on their hybrid cars, is simply a means to overload our already overtaxed electrical power grid. They don't get it that they're trading CO2 generation from buring gasoline for CO2 generation from buring coal.

They don't get it that the only power plant that actually creates 'clean' (their parlance) energy is a nuclear power power plant. You have to remind them about Albert Einstein (E=mC2) and where the energy comes from with nuclear.

No, my friends, it's a Mad, Mad, Mad World out there in tree hugger land! It's NOT a place for rational scientifically trained individuals to venture...

[Terry M.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

[QUOTE=Jack Humphrey (17100);420914]
They don't get it, that putting that 'plug in' module on their hybrid cars, is simply a means to overload our already overtaxed electrical power grid. They don't get it that they're trading CO2 generation from buring gasoline for CO2 generation from buring coal. [QUOTE]

Jack if your electrical grid is overloaded in CO your utility is not doing its job. Electrical use is down almost 5% at the utility I work for, and our grid, even without that reduction, is just fine. Of course we have spent a lot of stockholders money to make it that way. That is also why I have a job in my old age. I work to improve the reliability of the grid every day. The risk of an overloaded grid from plug-in automobiles is just "the sky is falling" kind of concern.

The generation my utility uses has the greatest percentage of nuclear of any utility in the country, so your CO2 equation is dependent on where one is.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

[quote=Terry McManmon (3966);420919][quote=Jack Humphrey (17100);420914]
They don't get it, that putting that 'plug in' module on their hybrid cars, is simply a means to overload our already overtaxed electrical power grid. They don't get it that they're trading CO2 generation from buring gasoline for CO2 generation from buring coal.

Jack if your electrical grid is overloaded in CO your utility is not doing its job. Electrical use is down almost 5% at the utility I work for, and our grid, even without that reduction, is just fine. Of course we have spent a lot of stockholders money to make it that way. That is also why I have a job in my old age. I work to improve the reliability of the grid every day. The risk of an overloaded grid from plug-in automobiles is just "the sky is falling" kind of concern.

The generation my utility uses has the greatest percentage of nuclear of any utility in the country, so your CO2 equation is dependent on where one is.

is there going to be a way to meet the emissions set forth by the feds without taking coal fired plants off line ???

[Terry M.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

is there going to be a way to meet the emissions set forth by the feds without taking coal fired plants off line ???

What emissions standards are you talking about Clem?

I got to tell you generation is not my end of the business. I do Transmission and Distribution, or as it is known by the layman: "The Grid." So I am the wrong guy to ask about utility emissions standards, if that is what you are asking about. We do have a member who posts here occasionally who is in the generation end of the utility business, though.

[Robert R.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

Jack,
..also agree as to the goofy things our government does to reward certain farmers for not growing crops.
Magically this year, we do not have corn at the price it was last year and so beef, pork and poutry prices are back to pricing two years ago.
And yes, the Taurus did get less mileage when using the E85, but the cost at the pump over the years greatly offset my expenses for work travel by car.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

What emissions standards are you talking about Clem?

I got to tell you generation is not my end of the business. I do Transmission and Distribution, or as it is known by the layman: "The Grid." So I am the wrong guy to ask about utility emissions standards, if that is what you are asking about. We do have a member who posts here occasionally who is in the generation end of the utility business, though.

the feds say we have to get the emissions back to some previous years level by a certain year and the only way i can see that happening is to shut down coal fired plants.

[William C.]

Re: Ethanol, It's not just bad news for old cars

Yes, I believe the concentration at the time I (almost) took a forced trip there was 100% excluding small additives. At times, being in the wiring business was a "guilty until proven innocent" business!