Original documentation dating verification

[Clem Z.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

Yeah, but if the crook gets his hands on 40 year old paper and carbons and a teletype machine, what good is the test?

he still needs to print the other stuff on the paper besides the options. he will also need 40 year old ink. all 40 year old paper is not the same so it would have to duplicate the paper used in a original tank stickers. if a guy was smart enough to save the correct 40 year old paper he should be able to do this as he was smarter than the rest of us to know that these car would be valuable some day.

[Jack H.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

That's my point... I can take you to more than one used electronics shop here in town where you can pickup a TTY 33 ASR or KSR machine. Some have back rooms filled with machines stacked on top of each other covered with dust and cobwebs as well as cartons of various aged paper reminants originally used by these machines.

In terms of the 'ink', TTY's were an impact printer leaving a top surface impression through a ribbon. How many boxes of aged ribbons would you like to see/buy? They're VERY common.

As far as aged carbon paper goes, that's a snap at any ma/pa office supply store that's been in business for years. It isn't hard to dig up some to 're-create' the Protecto Plate emboss in a reproduction warranty book that's been equipped with a reproduction plate.

So, what I'm getting at is anyone who'd offer to execute a forensics examination of this/that build sheet or other machine generated document from the 50's through early 70's would have to take so many disclaimers to protect himself that I don't think his affidavit would carry much weight...

[Pat M.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

I think it's a matter of someone FINDING the stuff with hindsight, rather than SAVING it with foresight. I doubt anyone bought POP embossing machines, blank POPs, and blank dymo tape in the 70s in hopes of making money later. But today they can be found and used for that very purpose.
My humble opinion is that a motivated person could find the necessary materials to defeat such an age test. My opinion is worth what you paid for it!

[Alan S.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

Hi Ken,
Some very interesting responses and thoughts because of your post!
Thanks!
I'll be interested to hear what you discover if you decide to contact the CSI team. I have my 38 year old Bill of Sale, Window Sticker, Tank Sheet and Registration, if they need TINY samples for a base line.
Regards,
Alan

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

I have a repo POP that looks outstanding, and went through judging without detection. How? The guy I got it from had one of the original POP machines, perfect font and all. With cars worth well over 100K and much more you don't think someone can find a way? ANY test can be beaten. Not paranoid, just realistic. And besides, I'm not that old.

NCRS dose not judge POP'S. I guess I wasted my money on the NCRS trim tag book. The C-2 POP book is coming out soon. Thanks for the heads up I will not buy that book. I guess AL GRENNING is all wet he said that just like a typewriter no two machines are the same. Wasted my time going to his seminar's.
KEN

[Edward C.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

In my very limited experience with one 1971 where the origional tank sticker was compared to a repo it is very easy to spot the fake. I believe if you had an origional to the era in question to compare to a repo you could spot it easly. Some repo's may be better than the one I observed. Ed

[Harry L.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

I THINK WE GET A LITTLE CARRIED AWAY WITH ALL THIS ORIGINALITY. I KNOW WE DON;T LIKE TO HEAR IT, BUT A LOT OF THINGS HAVE BEEN REPLACED AND RE BUILT IN THE LAST 45 YEARS TO MAKE A CORVETTE ORIGINAL

[Graeme B.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

It might be easier to fake the Forensic Report.

[Stuart F.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

What has happened to our world? There is no longer such a word as "word" or one such as "trust". This country and the world, for that matter, are in a great demise. I'm glad I'm old and won't live to see the conclusion, but I grieve for my grandchildren and what they will go through. Perhaps I will be wrong. Maybe they will be the saviors and the solutions. This thread is awful.

Stu fox

[Bert L.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

You have "nailed it" Stuart!

[Dale C.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

Don't want to get too political but if Dan Rather and the national news media can't pull off a fake mil. records scheme on George Bush, I don't think there is any full proof methodology of faking document on old corvettes. Unless they were all fake to begin with.
Dale

[Jaime G.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

How old are you Stuart?
Its too bad that you feel that way. Some of us do still consider this hobby fun.
JG

[Kenneth H.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

Alan, thanks for your comments. I'm going to pursue the issue further with a few of the document experts to see what I can find out. If what Clem says about the cost ($10k) is correct, it's probably a moot point, but it's worth looking at. I'll let everyone know what I discover.

Stu, I don't think that this thread is awful. On the contrary, if you think about any other collector hobby, authenticators abound. If they didn't exist then anyone could fake a Piccasso or a Rembrandt and sell the painting for millions. Same thing with coins and furniture and all kinds of other collectibles. Hear at NCRS we don't look at authentication, but only "as delivered" from the factory. Prime example is "The Last Corvette". Not an original 'vette but just one in as delivered condition. And we don't look at paperwork at all.

Park two 1967 435HP convertibles in exactly the same restored condition side by side, with one having all of the original documentation and the other having no documentation. What would be the difference in selling price? Would it be $30,000 or $40,000, or more? Authentication of documentation is critical, and anything we can do to verify the documentation would be a boon to the seller and the buyer alike. I don't know if it can be done. I just think it's worth looking at.

Thanks,

[Paul J.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

Is technically correct reproduced documentation any differrent from a correct reproduction part? (I know, they don't exist) I know that it's more preferable to have the original documentation, but this discussion implies that reproduction documents are fraudulent representations of the originals. If reproducing a document is called a forgery, why isn't the same standard held for parts? If a document is reproduced with "original" paper, ink, ect. and is not original to that particular car, how different is this from an "original" correct part that did not come on that particular car? Just some food for thought.

Paul

[Kenneth H.]

Re: Original documentation dating verification

Paul, absolutely, there is a tremendeous difference when comparing the two. The difference is in the added value. One or two critical documents can add a lot to the resale value of a 'vette. In some cases upwards of 20% to 25% of the selling price.

No one reproduction part can do that. In restoring a 'vette you might end up using many reproduction parts and maybe even attain a Top Flight award which could also add resale value to the vette. However, there are many thousands of parts that are inspected during judging, and as I understand it most of the 'vette needs to be original to receive the award. And if you use a lot of reproduction parts, that's going to get expensive and will probably offset the added resale value associated with the award.

And lastly, no one has implied that the creation of the document is fraudulent, although there are certainly legal issues that revolve around licensing. Fraud applies only when these documents are used at resale to claim that the 'vette is something that it's not.