Identify engine sound?

[James G.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

Roald,
At the risk of really opening up a can of worms on this thread, I am jumping in. First off, I did not see where you listed how many miles were on the car. Regardless, I agree with many of the other posts that you should rebuild your engine. Far to much bearing metal in the pan for my taste. You do not know where it has gotten to, especially if the oil filter became plugged. If it was the oil was eventually routed around the filter and will have gone every where. Here is where I am going to get in trouble. Pennzoil was mentioned in an earlier post. It is one of the most popular oils in the states. Probably lubricates very well also. But, to my understanding it is a perifin based oil And over time will build up a sludge in your motor that would make any Corvette enthusiast sick to his stomach. My dad was a mechanic for some 40 years and he told me when I started driving and working on car he would hang me by my b***s if he ever caught me using Pennzoil or Quaker State oil in any car. There it is guys. Especially interested in what Duke has to say about this as from his numerous posts he seems extremely knowledgeable about these things.
John

I worked for Shell Oil 1965-71. Was a Shell Oil dealer 1971-1979. A Union 76 Dealer 1979-1982. A Chevron dealer 1982-1994.

We always had PENNZOIL and QUAKER STATE for those that demamded it, but I also had examples of pistons, valves and oil pans that used those oils and those that used other major branded oils.

If you changed the oil and filter every 3000 miles, most had no trouble. But the parafin wax oils tended to clog oiling galleries, especially on hot engines that never were changed regularily.

[Duke W.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

Ran into an issue of crankshaft/thrust bearing wear on a '65 365 HP engine that was restored to my "327 LT-1" configuration. There is really no effective way I know of to restore a crank that has significant wear on the thrust surface, and being as how big journal 327 cranks are rare, your best bet is to find a good used 350 crank and go from there. Peak power will be about the same as a 327, but it will occur at lower revs and the engine will make more average torque/power across the useable range.

As far as the "Special 300 HP" configuration is concerned, I'm not sure if it is suitable for a TH 400 and won't know until I see a dyno test with torque data down to 1500. I also have a "Special Powerglide" cam design that has shown good results on a lab dyno, but both cams were ground by Crane, so we no longer have a source.

The fact that you live in Denmark may complicate things as I have no idea where you can purchase Sealed Power or other OE equivalent replacement parts.

You might want to contact Erv Myers. He has a '69 base engine/TH 400/3.08 that he asked me to drive and evaluate the power. He knew it had non original heads, and the power felt like it peaked at 3500 and was all done at 4000. It turned out the heads were truck heads with 1.70/1.50" and small ports - like 283 heads. I had no idea that such heads were manufactured in the 350 era.

Erv located a correct set of heads, had them massaged, and installed them. I subsequently drove the car, and it could light the tires from a dead stop and the engine pulled strong from off-idle to 5500. It was a real sweet runner and is a classic example that supports my contention that power is all about head flow - not cams or carburetors or any other bolt on hot rod stuff.

Neither the "Special 300 HP" nor "Special Powerglide" cams are hot rod cams. In fact, the reason I designed them is because I could not find anything in the aftermarket that even came close to the valve timing numbers I needed to maintain OE idle and provide the required low end torque for each application with "balanced durations" that were specifically matched to the E/I flow ratio of pocket ported heads.

Both provide maximized torque bandwidth and power for their respective applications by "tuning" the valve timing to the flow characteristics of the massaged heads.

Duke

[Vincent F.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

your jumping in to deep here, it most likly is a lifter not getting oil.

[Roald P.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

Ran into an issue of crankshaft/thrust bearing wear on a '65 365 HP engine that was restored to my "327 LT-1" configuration. There is really no effective way I know of to restore a crank that has significant wear on the thrust surface, and being as how big journal 327 cranks are rare, your best bet is to find a good used 350 crank and go from there. Peak power will be about the same as a 327, but it will occur at lower revs and the engine will make more average torque/power across the useable range.

I didnt know they were that hard to come by. Well if its beyond repair I'll probably go with the 350 crank. Too bad the small journal forged 327 crank I have collecting dust does not fit

Im probably first rebuilding it late summer or in the fall, so right now Im just researching different options and getting a gameplan together.

As far as the "Special 300 HP" configuration is concerned, I'm not sure if it is suitable for a TH 400 and won't know until I see a dyno test with torque data down to 1500. I also have a "Special Powerglide" cam design that has shown good results on a lab dyno, but both cams were ground by Crane, so we no longer have a source.

The fact that you live in Denmark may complicate things as I have no idea where you can purchase Sealed Power or other OE equivalent replacement parts.

Well, its not so much if I can buy the parts but what it is going to cost me in shipping and taxes. If you think its expensive to restore an old corvette, try doing it overseas

The Sealed Power CS274 was one of the possible OE replacement cams I should get, right?

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=Sealed+Power+CS274&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=700+115

Whats the difference between the Sealed Power KC274 & CS274 camshaft? Nearly the same specifications from what I can see but the first is almost twice as expensive and have a bigger RPM range?

You might want to contact Erv Myers. He has a '69 base engine/TH 400/3.08 that he asked me to drive and evaluate the power. He knew it had non original heads, and the power felt like it peaked at 3500 and was all done at 4000. It turned out the heads were truck heads with 1.70/1.50" and small ports - like 283 heads. I had no idea that such heads were manufactured in the 350 era.

I have such a set of heads laying around, 3986339X with 1.74/1.50" something, made 163 RWHP on dyno (engine was 1965 327 cui)

Erv located a correct set of heads, had them massaged, and installed them. I subsequently drove the car, and it could light the tires from a dead stop and the engine pulled strong from off-idle to 5500. It was a real sweet runner and is a classic example that supports my contention that power is all about head flow - not cams or carburetors or any other bolt on hot rod stuff.

Neither the "Special 300 HP" nor "Special Powerglide" cams are hot rod cams. In fact, the reason I designed them is because I could not find anything in the aftermarket that even came close to the valve timing numbers I needed to maintain OE idle and provide the required low end torque for each application with "balanced durations" that were specifically matched to the E/I flow ratio of pocket ported heads.

Both provide maximized torque bandwidth and power for their respective applications by "tuning" the valve timing to the flow characteristics of the massaged heads.

Duke

Im probably going after something like Erv's setup. I dont think I can have the heads flowtested over here so even if the 'Special 300 HP' configuration have enough torque for the th-400 and I could get a cam, its going to be difficult making sure that the heads flow enough to support the cam.

Thanks for your input

Regards

Roald

[Roald P.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

your jumping in to deep here, it most likly is a lifter not getting oil.

Well even if the sound is from a lifter, my thrust bearing is still trashed and the crankshafts counterweight is running against the main caps. My main bearings are worn and my camshaft is missing at least one lope from what I can tell from below

[Jack Y.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

I cranked up a Ford truck one morning and imediately a new 'lifter-type' noise started. I pulled out the engine and found it had suffered a hydraulic lock, water in the cylinder due to a bad head gasket. It bent the rod just enough to give a nice 'click'. Just a thought.

[Duke W.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

I don't know what the KC274 is. Just buy a CS274.

SB head massaging techiques have been in publication for over 35 years. Sources are in the archives. I always recommend flow testing to confirm that the modifications produce the expected flow. Flow benches set up to test Chevy heads are fairly common in the US - probaby not so common in Denmark.

The large journal 327 was a one-year only configuration, so cranks aren't common; 350 cranks are plentiful and cheap, but only buy from a reputable vendor who has had the crank Magnafluxed, and has measured the journal diameter - also whether the crank is ready to install or needs journal grinding.

If you go with a 350 crank, install the cam with four degrees retard if you want to trade a little low end torque for top end power. It will still have more low end than the 327.

Do the heads right and retard the cam four degrees and the engine should be near 220 SAE corrected RWHP - about the same as a Flint built L-79 and it will still have the smooth low-rev auto trans friendly idle.

Assuming you have 98 RON premium fuel, you can go to a max of 10:1 true CR with the cam retard.

Duke

[Roald P.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

I don't know what the KC274 is. Just buy a CS274.

SB head massaging techiques have been in publication for over 35 years. Sources are in the archives. I always recommend flow testing to confirm that the modifications produce the expected flow. Flow benches set up to test Chevy heads are fairly common in the US - probaby not so common in Denmark.

The large journal 327 was a one-year only configuration, so cranks aren't common; 350 cranks are plentiful and cheap, but only buy from a reputable vendor who has had the crank Magnafluxed, and has measured the journal diameter - also whether the crank is ready to install or needs journal grinding.

If you go with a 350 crank, install the cam with four degrees retard if you want to trade a little low end torque for top end power. It will still have more low end than the 327.

Do the heads right and retard the cam four degrees and the engine should be near 220 SAE corrected RWHP - about the same as a Flint built L-79 and it will still have the smooth low-rev auto trans friendly idle.

Assuming you have 98 RON premium fuel, you can go to a max of 10:1 true CR with the cam retard.

Duke

I have local mechanic who's been involved in dragracing (chevy V8's) for the last 20 years. He is going to help me with the heads.

I can see that the 327 big journal cranks is not easy to find, unless I go with an aftermarket forged 3.25 stroke eagle crank at 700$ so Im probably going with your suggestion.

We have 99 RON fuel availible in most places, so thats not a problem.

Thanks,

Roald

[Duke W.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

If you can find a large journal 327 crank, it might be cheap because nobody wants them.

99 RON fuel is nice - essentially the same as our leaded premiums from the sixties, which were typically in the range of 99-100 RON. It would take 94-95 PON to be the equal. A few places in the USA might have 94, but the best we have in California is 91 PON.

PON is the arithmetic average of MON and RON, and a fuel's "sensitivity", which is the difference between MON and RON is typically in the range of 8 to 10.

Avgas octane ratings used a "aviation method", which involves different test procedures, but the octane numbers are very close to MON.

Duke

[Stuart F.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

I ran Quaker State 20w in my 63 L-76 from new through the mid-70's as it was the "in" thing. I changed to a multigrade when I used it less and it was in storage. At about 37k miles, I dropped the pan to knock out a dent and replace a stripped drain plug fitting. The inside was as clean as a baby's behind, but then I didn't allow that engine to lollygag in traffic much ever. I only recently changed over to Shell Rotella 15w-40 and had the valve covers off for a reset. Top deck is clean as ever. Yes i change often, and yes I keep it running red line capable all the time - good ignition, fresh coolant (160 degree thermostat), etc. I'm at 45k now and expect that engine to out live me hands down. Just my 2 coins.

Stu Fox

[Duke W.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

Whatever experience - good or bad - anyone had with a particular brand of engine oil decades ago is history.

Sludge is caused by oxidation and crankcase contamination by blowby products. But the anti-oxidation properties of today's API rated oils are much better than decades ago.

Sludge can still form if used oil spents too much time sitting in the engine, and it's exacerbated with short trip driving - even if mileage accumulation rate is low.

That's why I recommend at least an annual oil change, and it should be done prior to winter storage, so the engine has fresh oil during hibernation.

If you drive less than 500 miles in a season, it's probably okay to go two years, especially if the trip lengths were not short and each engine cycle is at least a half hour long to allow the oil to spend some time at high temperature so most of the cold start/warm-up contaminants are boiled off and recycled by the PCV system.

If your Corvette is old enough to have nothing but a road draft tube, I would change the oil annually even is it only has 50 miles. Road draft tubes don't ventilate the crankcase very well, and can allow rapid buildup of sludge.

One of the primary reasons why post-1963 engines did not sludge up as much as prior years is because '63 was the first year that PCV systems were required nationwide. California first required them for the '61 model year.

Duke

[Stuart F.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

Exactly my point Duke. Thanks for stating it so eloquently which addresses those who blamed the Pennzoil and Quaker State oils. It's how the vehicle is used and maintained that matters more. My 63, of course, has the PCV ventilating system and that too is routinely maintained. The only time it ever failed me was on one startup after storage when I blew the valve covers off - lesson learned.

Stu Fox

[Roald P.]

Re: Identify engine sound?

As an conclusion to this thread, after assembling the engine again and pressing the crankshaft as much backwards as possible and then starting it up, the noise disappeared. Therefor it must have been the crankshaft counterweights rubbing on/hitting the mains that caused the noise.

Thanks for all the replies on the subject