Motor Oil

[Dale M.]

What is zinc? How zinc/phosphorus works
The zinc/phosphorus molecules react in the oil and release phosphorus-containing compounds that make a wear-resisting phosphate glass film on the critical surfaces of contacting engine parts. With most brands, this process also results in phosphorus being released with engine emissions into the catalytic converter, where it can poison the emissions system over time.

Why zinc/phosphorus level in engine oil has changedThe controversy Consumer Solutions
There are high-zinc engine oils available to meet this need. It is important to note,
however, that the entire additive package still needs to be balanced for best performance. For example, engine oil with a high zinc level but low detergent may not perform over a drain interval of 3,000 miles or longer.

Valvoline offers two solutions to the zinc issue

Valvoline Racing VR1: 75% higher zinc than SM engine
oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in
both racing and street-legal applications. This product will
protect older style push-rod and flat tappet engines.
Valvoline provides this product in both multi and mono
viscosity grades: SAE 20W-50 (part vv211), straight SAE
50 (part vv235), SAE 10W-30 (part vv205), SAE 30(part
vv223), SAE 40 (part vv229), and SAE 60 (part vv241)

Longer-Lasting Zinc/Phosphorus: Valvoline uses an advanced zinc/phosphorus additive that keeps higher levels of phosphorus in the engine oil where it protects the engine, instead of poisoning the catalytic converter. Valvoline is the only brand offering this unique additive across its entire line of passenger car engine oils, including SynPower which is the only synthetic offering this additive. www.valvoline.com

Rob Clendening & Fran Lockwood
Valvoline, division of Ashland Inc 1-859-357-7000
Lexington KY

[Stuart F.]

Re: Motor Oil

Looks like the California TRD Toyota engine builders for NASCAR need to look in on our discussions about motor oil. They are failing camshafts and lifters like crazy, specially during qualifying and practice with new engines - sound familiar? They said they had tried different "coatings" and "oil viscosities", but to no avail, and if the engine made it through the first few hours of running (breakin), it was ok. When the cars would come into the pits after a practice run, they would check the valve clearances to determine "go" or "no go" condition. The JGR engines with Mr. Gibb's finest ZDDP oils have had no problems. So even the big boys have to learn some lessons the hard way.

Stu Fox

[Duke W.]

Re: Motor Oil

In order to turn nearly 10,000 revs with a flat tappet cam and pushrod valve train, horrendus valve spring forces are required, which means the overlapping combination acceptable materials, hardness, surface coatings, and oil formulations may cover a very narrow range.

And anyone who uses a NASCAR engine oil formulation in a road engine is a fool because the requirements are completely difference vis-a-vis additives such as detergents, dispersants, anti-foam and anti-wear additives.

But I know it's going to happen because guys have been installing "racer stuff" in their road engines since before most of us were born.

Duke

[Tory S.]

Re: Motor Oil

Guys,

I got off Rotella over a year ago!

I found a 15W-40 oil specially formulated for older cars with all the right additives, including 1600 ppm of ZDDP, and important preservatives since my cars don't get driven regularly enough.

It was specifically formulated by a car club in Indiana for just how we use our cars.

It's $50 a case of 12 qts and I'm using it in a '58, '63 & '75 with no problems. Read the articles link at their website http://classiccarmotoroil.com/articles.html for more information and decide for yourself.

Works for me,
Tory

[Bill B.]

Re: Motor Oil

Duke - I agree, that is very important to understand that the race engines are built to accommodate higher viscosity oils, using them in a everyday or weekend cruiser that was originally built in closer tolerances could result in premature engine wear.

Bill

[Duke W.]

Re: Motor Oil

Guys,


I found a 15W-40 oil specially formulated for older cars with all the right additives, including 1600 ppm of ZDDP It's $50 a case of 12 qts and I'm using it in a '58, '63 & '75 with no problems.
Tory

First of all, ZDDP is represented by P, and 1600 ppm is too much for a road engine that is expected to last a decade or more. Over 1400 in a road engine can cause problems including some exotic corrosion mechanisms over time. I don't know of any API certified oil, S or C-category, that has ever had over 1400 ppm P.

This is an example of what I call a "boutique oil" that costs double the price of CJ-4 for a product that may do harm in the long run, and OE valvetrains certainly don't need more than 1200 ppm P. I doubt if it is API certified, so you have to rely on the marketer's claim, alone, that it has the "right additives".

Just about any oil will run with "no problems" in a vintage engine. The difference between "best" and "worst" would require a fleet of field test vehicles run in the same environment for years and a lot of lab tests, which is what API certification is all about.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: Motor Oil

Duke - I agree, that is very important to understand that the race engines are built to accommodate higher viscosity oils, using them in a everyday or weekend cruiser that was originally built in closer tolerances could result in premature engine wear.

Bill

Higher viscosity? NASCAR engines typically use 0W oil for qualifying and 0W-20 for most races, and their oils are formulated with little or no detergent/dispersant and a higher dose of anti-wear and anti-foaming additives than typical API-certified oils. The use of SAE 30, 40, 50, or 20W-50 viscosities in racing engines is a relic of the seventies.

The lower the oil viscosity, the lower the internal friction, which means more power to the wheels. They've found the absolute minimum oil viscosity and oil flow rate that will allow the engine to live through most races.

It's a completely different application than a road engine, either vintage or modern.

On a road engine it's certainly not worth pushing the limit of viscosity and flow rate to achieve a faction of a percent more peak power!

Duke

[Tory S.]

Re: Motor Oil

Duke,

You obviously know a lot more about lubrication than I do. I would love for you to read the articles at the link I gave in my previous post and give us your opinion on what claims the car club is making.

http://classiccarmotoroil.com/articles.html

Thanks,
Tory

[Duke W.]

Re: Motor Oil

It appears to be a decent review of history and the current situation with S-category oil, but falls apart when they start talking about ZDDP and barely makes a passing mention of C-category oil.

1600 PPM ZDDP IS NOT NECESSARY, AND, IN FACT, IS TOO MUCH FOR A ROAD ENGINE FOR REASONS THAT I HAVE REVIEWED IN PRINT AND ON THIS TDB BOTH IN THIS THREAD AND OTHERS.

The typical ZDDP level in oils from the seventies to the early 2000s based on the P analysis was about 1200 ppm. How many engines operated in this era had wear problems due to lack ZDDP? Wear problems of that era were due to material or suface hardness issues, not the oil.

More is not always better. Six beers may make you feel good. Twelve will probably make you sick.

Paying double for an oil that has more than 1100-1200 ppm P makes as much sense and hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.

Now, why don't you reread the article in the Summer 2008 Restorer (or reprinted and on the Web at the link I offered in a previous post) and tell us what your referenced article left out. Pay particular attention to the difference in how the two articles explain/discuss the CJ-4 product. (Hint: If you are marketing a boutique oil to vintage car enthusiasts, either don't mention CJ-4 at all or just give it a passing mention with no real explanation of what it is or details about its formulation, especially the P analysis.)

Duke

[Joe C.]

Re: Motor Oil

With all of the "experts" who have chimed in to this thread, I am surprised that nobody has addressed the aggressiveness of the cam flank, and its influence on lobe wear rates!

Flat tappet cam wear rates, whether they be solid or hydraulic, will respond negatively to increased spring loads, which should rise as cam ramp rates become more aggressive. All vintage flat tappet cams, which our old cars are equipped with, were designed with durability as a KEY element. Their flanks are very mild by today's standards, and should stand up well to today's oils with lowered ZDDP levels. The price to pay for this is a sacrifice of power levels.

Some aftermarket flat tappet cams are designed to produce prodigious torque/horsepower. Of course, nothing in life is free..............so, durability is sacrificed!

So long as one employs a flat tappet (including aftermarket) camshaft with a relatively mild lobe, then one will not have to worry about zinc/phosphorous levels in todays CJ-4 oils.

I suspect that some engine builders will not "stand behind" flat tappet cams with fast-lift flanks, if they will be used for street/strip.

I would not admonish anyone for desiring extra protection, and who may wish to supplement ZDDP levels in CJ-4 oils. It will do no harm, and will prolong camshaft life, especially if your engine is equipped with a relatively big OEM cam, like the 3927140, or 3972178..........which are also mild by today's standards.

[Duke W.]

Re: Motor Oil

The ...178 (LT-1 cam) has mild dynamics, as do all OE cams, and none of the OE cams/springs need any more ZDDP than is contained in CJ-4.

Big blocks see higher lobe-lifter interface loading than any small blocks, but still do not need more ZDDP than contained in CJ-4.

Cams such as the Comp Cams XE series that require high rate springs have aggressive dynamics and are prone to failure. I don't recommend them regardless of how much ZDDP is in the oil.

More than 1400 ppm P in oil can cause long term problems, which is why no API certified oil has ever been above that level.

Duke

[Tory S.]

Re: Motor Oil

Duke,

Would you be so kind as to repost the link you mentioned regarding the Summer Restorer article. I didn't see it in this tread.

Much appreciated,
Tory

[Duke W.]

Re: Motor Oil

It must have been another recent, active thread. Here's the link:

http://www.westcoastwillys.com/WCW_Sept08_small.pdf

Scroll down to page three of the pdf.

Duke

[Bill B.]

Re: Motor Oil

ZDDP, its not just the 'P' that we need to be conserned with.
Starting at engine break in, and sworn to secrecy as to the source, a representative of one of the largest engine remanufacturing companies in the country admitted that they break in all their engines with diesel mineral oil. They offered two specific reasons for this. First was that the higher level of ZDDP offers increased protection to the cam and lifters, which was almost a given. The second will come as more of a surprise. They believe that because of the compounding, these oils are, in his words, "slightly less slippery," and promote spinning of flat tappets and biting of the rings to the cylinder walls, both of which help the break-in process. Although quite a few custom engine builders also agreed on diesel oil for break-in, others prefer racing oil and a few still rely on 30W non-detergent.
As I talked to various engine builders, we heard a variety of theories on the subject of oil for flat-tappet engines after the initial break-in period; diesel oil was a popular alternative. However, be aware that diesel oils have particularly high detergent levels. Those detergents "surround" deposits that accumulate in the oil and hold them in suspension, so much of it drains out when the oil is changed. However, these detergents will also stick to the inside of the engine and may result in sludge-like residue inside the engine.
There are other oil options that have been suggested; some have tried marine oil-specified for use in four-cycle, water-cooled outboards-and motorcycle oil. But the fact is, all of these are stopgap measures because technology is closing in on us. Soon, catalytic converters will be mandatory on virtually everything with an internal combustion engine, and diesel, marine, and motorcycle oil will reflect that with lowered levels of ZDDP. We've been told that zinc is mandated to be 600 ppm or less by 2012, but don't panic-there are alternatives and more will likely become available.
For now, keep in mind the oils with the lowest ZZDP levels are those with the latest API SM service designation. Oils that don't meet that standard and are SL rated (check some of the high-mileage varieties), or are not API rated, have more ZZDP.
The fact is there are plenty of options available to provide any engine with the protection it needs, as soon as one oil company starts targeting the needs of vintage engines that don't have warranty issues, others are bound to follow. We may not be able to stop technology, but at least we can cope with it.
News From SEMA
Among the list of products to be introduced will be a line of engine oils and additives that specifically address the zinc needs of flat-tappet cams.
What is the purpose of zinc additives? Zinc-based additives are used primarily as anti-wear agents to prevent premature wear of engine components. ZDDP is the most commonly utilized form, which also provides corrosion and oxidation protection.
Zinc is generally introduced to motor oil through its working partner, phosphorous; in ('tandem'), they provide one hell of an anti-wear agent. It's, without question, the best we have, although there are some who claim XYZ polymer can perform the same task; however, it does not!
Zinc dithiophosphate has been the chemistry of choice since the mid-'50s as the "anti-wear agent in high-performance oils." Zinc is better defined as an anti-weld agent because the surface asperities cannot connect or transfer in its presence. As the liquid oil transitions from a support separating fluid (hydrodynamic lubrication) to the touching or colliding asperity contact (boundary lubrication), the zinc instantly reacts and bonds, causing separation between the two moving surfaces. This is known as a chemical absorbed reaction layer, and the phosphorus counterpart to the zinc makes this possible. The phosphorus is the heat-seeking element that fluxes the zinc to the metal surfaces that are demanding protection from the metal-to-metal contact. The zinc dithiophosphate chemical is made from almost equal parts of zinc and phosphorus, or a 1 to 1 relationship.
Why were zinc levels lowered?
Zinc levels were lowered in response to the American Petroleum Institute (API) SM and International Lubricants Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) GF-4 oil specifications. The action was driven by original equipment manufacturers (OEM) based on the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) mandate that emissions reduction systems needed to function for a specific period of time without failing. OEMs pushed to remove anything in motor oils that could potentially harm emissions reduction systems.

Bill .....

[George J.]

Re: Motor Oil

Duke,
I have a few questions, but please forgive me if they have been covered before. I did read your article in the Restorer, but it has been a few months. First, does a higher level of ZDDP mean that there is greater wear protection from the beginning of use, or does it mean that the wear protection lasts longer? Stated another way, does the current level of 600ppm (I think this is correct) not provide enough wear protection even if the oil is fresh, or newly changed?
Second, don't most, if not all, of the newer overhead cam engines run what is basically a flat tappet design? From what I remember, on double overhead cam engines, the cam is in direct contact with the "lifter". If this is the case, would not the OEM's put more of an emphasis on this possiblility of increased engine wear, especially since they use such extended intervals for oil changes?
Again, I apologize if this has all been hashed out before, but I have not read every post of every thread. Thanks for your sharing your knowledge.

George 31887