Top flight point vs. cost

[Tom R.]

I'm curious about some of the formulas you use to determine whether you'll invest in a part and its return on investment...or what's your cutoff when it's no longer prudent. I understand some restorers will do what it takes to pick up those rare items but I'm looking for general guidance.

For example, Pace Car decals cost $300 new and they can be picked up off ebay (NOS) for same amount. The 78-79 reference guide shows that they are worth 10 points or $30 per point.

What ratio do you use as a guide before investing in a hard to get part?

[Grant M.]

Re: Top flight point vs. cost

Tom,

I think your question will be a little hard to answer definitively because there is a wide range of variables at play here: ability of an individual owner to afford NOS parts, cost of those parts versus point value represented (as you have shown in your example), the relative need for those points--(ie: can a Top Flight be earned without them?), and probably most importantly, just how much does the owner value, want or need a Top Flight award?

Added to this are owners who almost religiously stick to NOS or refurbished original parts, regardless of how indiscernible from original reproduction parts may be; these owners understandably contend that "original", even restored original, is better than reproduction, on a principle basis--and I couldn't fault them for that. In their case it's often not related to "points" in pursuit of a Top Flight award; they simply want their car to be as original as possible, not only in appearance and function as NCRS requires, but in FACT as well. There's even a sense of satisfaction in finding that long-elusive original part after scouring swap meets, classifieds and e-Bay.

On my own part I have leaned toward accepting good/functional reproductions, for two reasons: first and foremost, from the standpoint of why I bought the car: I wanted to drive and enjoy it, not meticulously restore it for trailering to shows. This is purely a personal decision and does not reflect any disrespect on my part for the 'hardcore' NCRS members who have done outstanding work in pursuit of true restoration to the car's original state "the way it was, not the way we wished it was" as David Burroughs of Bloomington Gold notoriety is quoted as saying. I truly love to see these masterpieces of research and restoration time and effort (and money in most cases) at NCRS shows to get a sense of what it must have been like on the day one took delivery of a new Sting Ray...

Nonetheless, I haven't modified my car from looking substantively like a 1965 Sting Ray, although I confess that it's original Silver Pearl paint (long since replaced by previous owners with a variety of alternatives: yellow, blue and white), did not appeal to me 20 years ago, nor did Rally Red (too orange), so I painted it Toyota Super Red II from 1985 colour formulas.

Since I started out with a non-original (327) block in terms of casting numbers and date there'd be a challenge in finding a 'correct' 270 block with appropriate date, not to mention the matter of re-stamping the pad. Again, because I wanted the car to drive and enjoy, not for NCRS Top Flight judging, I retained and rebuilt that block (heads, manifolds etc are all from the original engine). Other 'functional' parts such as shocks, brake lines, springs, tires, battery, are either NOS, reproduction or 'replacement' parts; again, because it's a driver. While I don't go out of my way to seek out NOS parts, I have bought/installed them when I can, and indeed received a large number of NOS parts with the car when purchased, but I don't have a 'ratio' by which I decide on NOS versus repro. I'm probably more a member of the first variable I mentioned: it depends on the affordability more than absolute originality, although if the price difference is relatively small, I might go the extra for NOS.

I look forward to seeing replies from members who are more engaged in the pursuit of Top Flight etc and hearing how they make such decisions...

grant

[Harmon C.]

Re: Top flight point vs. cost

Hi Tom
In judging you have 145 points to spend and still get the 97 Top Flight. If each one point would cost $100. would you feel good at trying to get close to a score of 100 for $14,500. Would a 97 make you just as happy as a 100?
Time helps the price of parts. If you call a parts vendor because you need the buzzer for the key when it is left in the ignition for a regional next week the cost could be $100. plus $20. for fast shipping. If you have time at Carlisle you may find the nice clean buzzer on top of a vendors table for $30. and pay $25. as an offer. At another vendor you could dig to the bottom of a junk box marked $1. each and find the same part.
If you get a judging score of 96.8 then take all the parts that could help you get to 97.3 or 22 points and buy the ones that cost the least per point. I would think the cost per point will be much more the older the project. Always try to get your score close to 98 because new things come up every time your car is judged.
Finding that special part at Carlisle or your local swap meet at a price you think is fair could be as much fun as getting the car judged. If you like to buy your parts with the telephone or at a swap meet the choice is yours but I had fun at old town last week and found a few parts.
If you buy those old decals I would not install them as I have read storys about them being junk after sitting in a hot car for years.

[Alan D.]

Re: Top flight point vs. cost

Tom,
Have heard (may be a rumor) that the Pace Car decals were not on car as shipped, so check this out. Would think, however, that the decals are in the car as shipped. My knowledge is almost zero on these years.

[Jack H.]

Re: Top flight point vs. cost

Of course the answer to the question of restoration economics is a very personal one (pride). But, here's a quickie method for framework...

Suppose you feel the value of your car 'perfectly' restored would be $45,000. There are 4500 judging points in the NCRS Flight system. Hence, you get a computed value of $10/point on AVERAGE. If you think the finished car would be worth $90K, then your shadow cost would be $20/point to break even economically.

Now, you can get a bit more clever and subtract your initial acquisition cost from the finished value and then divide by 4500 for a more accurate 'work in progress' yardstick. But, like most other things, the restoration process has a dimishing return aspect to it.

That means the cost of run of the mill items, easily acquired, will probably be below the economic average while those final 'finishing touch' items needed to climb the high end of the ladder (say, 95% to 96%) are going to be MUCH higher in cost than the average item(s).

Another way to view the restoration process is this. Suppose your objective is to achieve a Mark of Excellence Award. You need a solid score of 97% or better.

You do the restoration, campaign the car, and achieve the MoE award with a final score of 98.3%. That means you overspent or 'squandered' 1.3% in your restoration effort! The extra 1.3% works out to 58.5 judging points or $1170.00 on a $90K car...

[Mike M.]

Re: Top flight point vs. cost

Yes, Alan, the '78 PC decals were delivered IN the car along with the front chin spoiler for dealer application if the buyer so desired.
HaND

[Jimmy G.]

Re: Top flight point vs. cost

$10.00 per point max for small items. Paint points are not that cheap unfortunately

[Michael B.]

Re: Top flight point vs. cost

...and then there are things like inter-locking motor mounts which are not correct for my vehicle. I drive my car and it sees a trip or two to the drag strip every spring and summer. I consider safety a bigger priorty than a few points.

[Tom R.]

Re: Top flight point vs. cost

$10.00 per point max for small items. Paint points are not that cheap unfortunately

That's what I was hoping for...single sentence response.

I recognize its not that simple but appreciate the various indepth, didatic responses. It will just take a while to digest them and my digestive juices aren't use to a lot meat so it takes longer to process it.

[Harmon C.]

Re: Top flight point vs. cost

The hard part could be knowing how much a given part should sell for. The only way to know the price of parts today is to attend swap meets and ask prices. Beware you could find swapping parts is more fun than building and showing cars. At a local swap meet a friend bought a case of best way 212's for $2.00. One box in the case of six was empty so he only got five but not a bad deal.