Ethanol and Fuel Injection

[Martin T.]

In John DeGregory's article " Ethanol and Fuel Injection" the use of Viton rubber parts and a Viton needle and seat were mentioned. Where are these parts available? It sounds like the way to go.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

In John DeGregory's article " Ethanol and Fuel Injection" the use of Viton rubber parts and a Viton needle and seat were mentioned. Where are these parts available? It sounds like the way to go.

i would guess JD sells them

[Jim L.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

In John's article he noted that the parts he sells are compatible with or tolerant of ethanol blended fuels. If you use one of his rebuild kits, you won't have a problem.

Jim

[Dan H.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

In John's article he noted that the parts he sells are compatible with or tolerant of ethanol blended fuels. If you use one of his rebuild kits, you won't have a problem.

Jim

Jim, installed one of John's kits in my 64 FI in early 2005, have put 13K miles on it, all is still perfect! I use California ethonal tree hugger gas, about as bad as you can get gas wise.
Dan

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

Viton is one of the most durable elastomers available - much more durable than common nitrile materials used for o-rings.

The maintenance schedule for the Cosworth Vega calls for changing the o-rings that seal the injectors to the fuel rail every three years or 22,500 miles. About ten years ago I put together a "kit" of o-rings and seals for this and other CV applications. It's sold through the Cosworth Vega Owners' Assc. and I found an aerospace supplier that had all the proper size o-rings. Most of them are Viton, and the kit is inexpensive. GM still had the OE nitrile O-rings, but they were outrageously expensive.

Viton is suitable for application up to about 400F, but nitrile begins to deteriorate above 250F. Given that "aging" increases exponentially with temperature, Viton will probably last at least 4 times longer at 200F than nitrile and is more resistant to attack from ethanol.

Use of Viton basically eliminated the need to change the injector o-ring seals on the CV, and I also highly recommend Viton for valve seals. Viton o-rings are normally brown in color rather than the typical black for nitrile.

One could determine the correct size and find a supplier, but if John has already done this and has some durability data, you're better off buying them from him.

Duke

[John D.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

Hi Duke etal, Thanks for the free plug. I find it difficult to not use this forum as a means of taking your hard earned cash. I know it's unethical.
Story for all of you. When I wrote the article on Ethanol and your FI I didn't write it for "The Restorer". I wrote it for our Pittsburgh Chapter newsletter. Then out Chairman, Don Geary sent it in to Vinnie cause Vinnie said he wants all techincal articles as you guys aren't sending them in. Shortly after I got a nice note from Vinnie saying he liked my ethanol article and wanted to use it in his fine publication. So since the article came out I have heard from over 100 (much more) of you on this ethanol thing. Whew!!!.
I left out a very important thing in my article. Very important is putting it mildly. It's not just the rubber parts we have to worry about using ethanol. It's the CASTINGS we have to be concerned with. Most all of the 58 to 65 FI's have a zinc die cast fuel bowl.( The 7017300 unit does not) Well Clem and Duke for sure know that ethanol is going to attack this die cast aluminum. It will etch it and eventually it could eat right thru the bowl!!! I had that happen on a customers 63. He was running some kind of wild racing fuel and let it sit in his injection for 2 yrs.
Now it doesn't matter if you have a 58 to 65 FI or a Holley. I can tell when I tear a unit down if the owner was using a fuel with corrosives as I see a white/yellow powdery stuff. Under the powder I find damaged aluminum. Do I have a solution for this problem you ask? Nope.
Now my pal Dan Holstein drives his fuel car more than anyone I know. He claims he doesn't have any problems. Well he forgot something. I already sent him viton o'rings. Right Holstein???
As Duke said the o'rings are cheap. But do you know how to put them in??? I am not trying to drum up work. I am not using this forum for work as I am always busy and also collecting SS. Not as old as Clem but I am getting there.
I am doing my best to call you all back and answer all the emails. I will do so. At first I was upset about the article and then I realized I have done the right thing. Dukes letter confirms this.
I just got a call where a customer had a fire. Luckily he didn't do much damage. His midyear FI was leaking gas out of the bottom of the fuel meter. The two supply lines were leaking. Actually one line is the supply line and the other is the return line. He is running 10% ethanol.
How do you know it's onlyl 10% ethanol when you go to the pumps. Could be more than 10%. It's like how do you know you are getting Black Angus in the supermarkets???
If you have a show car or a casual driver try and get some good 100LL from your local small airport. That's my favorite but it's not really legal.
By the way watch your engine fuel pump. Especially the bottom round cover that says AC. If you have a repro built kit and are running ethanol or some of the racing fuels the gasket gets soft, etc and the cover gasket starts leaking. Google onto Classic Preservation Coalition and look at their fuel pump kits. I am going to order a fuel pump rebuild kit for my 63 FI car. know as the LWC and give it a go. Thanks, John D.

[Jim L.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

Jim, installed one of John's kits in my 64 FI in early 2005, have put 13K miles on it, all is still perfect! I use California ethonal tree hugger gas, about as bad as you can get gas wise.
Dan

Dan, I'm not surprised at all by your results. They match my own. I buy all the rebuild kits I use from John and have never had a problem with fuel compatibility. You and I probably get slightly different fuel blends, but I, too, have to contend with the ethanol blend here in northern CA.

Regards,

Jim

[John D.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

Jim, installed one of John's kits in my 64 FI in early 2005, have put 13K miles on it, all is still perfect! I use California ethonal tree hugger gas, about as bad as you can get gas wise.
Dan

Sorry Dan but the 2005 kit wasn't an ethanol type kit. Now it did have the viton needle and seat for the float. But the o'rings were most likely buna rubber. The pump seal was buna rubber for sure. We didn't get this new kit until sometime in 2008.(but you put viton o'rings in later)

Barry Holmes was my ginny pig. Barry tried the viton hi-pressure pump seal in his restored 62 FI car. He has driven the car quite a bit and has no problems with this seal. I was concerned because the viton pump seal doesn't have as much drag on the pump shaft as the buna rubber seal.
The original GM seals didn't have as much drag on the pump shaft either. Those buna rubber pump seals we used for an eon sure were hard on the pump shafts. Easily wore a groove in the shaft.
Dan-keep an eye on your hi-pressure pump for leaks. Carry a halon FE please.
My 63 FI car was the first unit that I did with all the viton stuff I could muster.I rebuilt the unit for the 4th time right before the Seven Springs regional in June 08. No leaks at all. I was running a combo of 1/2 ethanol and 1/2 100LL.
Now I have pure 100LL in the car. But I don't drive it much. With 100LL I can safely let the car sit and not worry about it gumming up. Aviation fuel does not gel. Does not gum up. It can sit for 100 years and not gum up. Now if it does then it's not the real deal. JD

[Tom P.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

This is NOT a plug for John D, it's just info (of course, John doesn't need plugs anyway).
I buy ALLLLLLLLLL my FI parts/rebuild kits from John with Zero problems.

Although, I do have one particular problem with John-----------he doesn't provide free overnight shipping on parts!

[Don H.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

As John stated (of course he is right) av gas - 100LL is the way to go. It has been in my 60 FI for years and works great. Also helps with hot engine restart. Don H.

[Bill M.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

It's the CASTINGS we have to be concerned with. Most all of the 58 to 65 FI's have a zinc die cast fuel bowl.( The 7017300 unit does not) Thanks, John D.

"I personally have ALWAYS thought that the guy that bought a new '59 Corvette got rooked as there are certainly a lot better 59 FI's than the primitive 7300 unit." Quote from John D.

Maybe we didn't get rooked after all?

Thanks for the great article John!

[Clem Z.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

go to https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...66672&uid=2077 ,check out the pictures of the ZO-6 ,to see what can happen if you don't take john's advice about FI

[Michael H.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

Sorry Dan but the 2005 kit wasn't an ethanol type kit. Now it did have the viton needle and seat for the float.

I thought original FI needle/seat needles were all metal? Maybe the new ones in aftermarket kits are not?

Just for fun, I decided to test a few FI parts in todays fuel. Last week, I tossed a used main control diaphragm seal in todays 10% fuel. Four days later, it looked exactly the same as it did when i tossed it in there. No swelling at all. Maybe it takes a lot longer? Same for a used main control diaphrag.

I haven't tested the small "O" rings on the bottom of the fuel meter though. Bet they swell.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

you can check for the amount of ethanol in the gasoline by using a graduated bottle. put in 50% gasoline and 50% water and shake it up real well. the ethanol should mix with the water and you should see a 10% increase in the volume of water if the fuel contains 10% methanol

[Duke W.]

Re: Ethanol and Fuel Injection

Commercial gasoline does not contain methanol, but nearly all blends contain some ethanol. The EPA limit for ethanol is 10 percent by volume, but not all areas are at the limit.

Duke