The beginning of the end?

[Bill L.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

I just have to take a little offense the the statement we are too stupid to conserve.

Car people can be very passionate about their wheels. Only tree huggers can be passionate about a Prius.

It is not that we are too stupid, it is that we have a love for cars and we prefer bigger, more comfortable, faster, better handing type cars that bring great joy when driving.

There is nothing joyful about driving a Prius if you are focused on the driving aspect.

It just really ticks me off when those of us that do not want to drive cookie cutter econo boxes are called stupid. If I for one am stupid because I prefer my corvette or Roadmaster Wagon to a Prius, Camry, Accord, Civic, Aveo, etc... than sign me up

[Clem Z.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

I just have to take a little offense the the statement we are too stupid to conserve.

Car people can be very passionate about their wheels. Only tree huggers can be passionate about a Prius.

It is not that we are too stupid, it is that we have a love for cars and we prefer bigger, more comfortable, faster, better handing type cars that bring great joy when driving.

There is nothing joyful about driving a Prius if you are focused on the driving aspect.

It just really ticks me off when those of us that do not want to drive cookie cutter econo boxes are called stupid. If I for one am stupid because I prefer my corvette or Roadmaster Wagon to a Prius, Camry, Accord, Civic, Aveo, etc... than sign me up

that is the difference between DRIVING and commuting.

[Chuck S.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

...not always in the best interest of the consumers...

I am unfamiliar with the term "prisoner's dilemma" (one semester psychology). In general, many individuals having input to decision making provides for the best decision in theory. It applies from financial markets down to the committee that plans the company Christmas party.

Some of us, sometimes many of us, are not happy with the way the financial markets are going...the reason is because we're on the wrong side of the market. If the majority thinks the market should go down, you'll be killed if you try to be the contrarian.

I understand the concept you describe as "prisoner's dilemma" quite well. I am unclear as who would be the "prisoners" making the choices in the GM situation. Is it the employees that don't like what their union was doing, but had to go along in order to have a job?

The scenario I fear most is where one political party, or the other, commits to benefits they can't pay in order to get elected, and a majority of the electorate is selfish and irresponsible enough to vote the scondrels in to get the benefits for themselves.

Each individual's response to such blatant bribery will depend on their upbringing and the value system they were taught. We are not prisioners here; we make decisions, good or bad, based on what seems right to us, and for us.

But once a single leader, or few leaders, begin to speak for you on what is right, and argue that you should work together collectively to achieve the goal they have for you, you are not likely to rely on your value system. This is what happened in **** Germany; most went along with inhumanity with little complaint because they didn't dare object. A few were brave martyrs for righteousness, and lost their lives.

You read one poster relate how he was exposed to union work rules at a young age. Even as a young person, he was able to recognize that the work rules seemed wasteful and inefficient...he being ambitious and motivated, sought college and a professional career.

We can't all be college graduates; some of us had to have less important jobs. Our role was to be a "toe" instead of the "brain". The point here is collective bargaining allows "toes" to think they're worth more money than they actually are, and it worked until the world illuminated reality.

The government is culpable in this disaster, no doubt, but foreign car makers are subject to the same government regulations as the domestics. And that part about forbidding state governments from offering tax incentives?...Why the hell not?...It's their money (well, their citizens money) they're giving away to gain an advantage for their state.

Bottom line: Life is a competition...Stop your whining and compete, or Die. That's what nature teaches you if you observe it.

[David D.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Just heard that GM has suspended work at the plant where they are working on the Volt engine. This does not do much for getting an already over-priced ($40K) vehicle done by the end of 2010 (ready for 2011 sales season). One would think that if you are banking on the Volt, you'd leave that as an absolute last resort prior to bankrupcy. GM Management at work again.....

Talk about cheap fuel. I just heard on the radio that the OPEC nations are going to reduce oil production by something like 2.2 something million barrels a day so that the price per barrel will increase. I guess we should get out and drive while we can. With lack on employment, high cost of fuel and more people getting laid off because of the high cost of travel. It doesn't seem very rosy.

David,
As the US Dollar falls, the price of oil follows. They are forced to cut production, but it's a loosing battle because as we spiral down the recession drain, oil use also goes down. Remember the oil is used for much more than just gasoline. It's used in the medical field, plastics, roads, etc....With business' being hit bad, ALL production slows. OPEC basically has little to no control over the price of a barrel of oil at this time.

Speculation, if the big three folded, closed down, how long would it take for the Honda, Toyota, and Nissian plant employees to vote the union in or would it not happen? Only takes a majority vote of the employees.

Jim,
My opinion-These automotive companies will not be in any position to worry or have need for unions. They to will experience 'massive' layoffs and plant shut downs as well. These companies will be struggling just to survive, and I believe even some of them will too vanish.
No union(s) required.

The health of our national economy is ENTIRELY dependent on the level of the trade deficit. The budget deficit is of virtually no concern in comparison because of how budget deficit dollars are recycled in the economy. A trade deficit takes those dollars out of the country – usually permanently and is THE reason we are in trouble as a nation today (the real estate, banking, and automotive problems we have today are a DIRECT result of this pattern of spending – or perhaps call it negative investment). The trade deficit needs to be eliminated even if it means near term tariffs to even out the structural problems set up by government.

Mark,
Respectively disagree.

What do you mean when you say "how budget deficit dollars are recycled in the economy" ?

"A trade deficit takes those dollars out of the country...........is THE reason we are in trouble as a nation today....problems we have today are a DIRECT result of this pattern of spending)".
The trade deficit has very little, if anything, to do with what we are currently, and will continue to experience. It is so much bigger and has much to do with the fact that the US dollar is the worlds reserve. It is a worthless piece of paper, backed by absolutely nothing, with absolutely no means to pay off any debt. In an effort to slow this down turn, the Federal Reserve (not our Government) is printing tons more of it (figuratively speaking) every day, in hopes for a soft landing, but I believe it's already to late, and as a result the entire world economy will suffer greatly. Remember foreign investors have been recycling their U.S. dollar trade surpluses back into the economy by purchasing government and corporate debt.

"The trade deficit needs to be eliminated even if it means near term tariffs to even out the structural problems set up by government". Here I agree a bit, well not that much. It would be nice if we could have eliminated the trade deficit, but this deficit is simply because we Import far more than we can possibly ever export. That is a direct coorelation in the fact that our regulations, labor costs etc....have forced us from being a Savings and Manufacturing/Production nation to a Borrowing and Import nation. In other words we got lazy in our comfortable way of life, and took our eye off the ball and as a result we must now buck up and pay the piper. We have people running our Government that are seriously and consciously trying to separate us from our wealth. Their plan is nearly complete, and I believe in the next year or two there will no longer be a middle class because of it......

Just some my opinions and thoughts,
David

[Chuck S.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Talk about cheap fuel. I just heard on the radio that the OPEC nations are going to reduce oil production by something like 2.2 something million barrels a day so that the price per barrel will increase. I guess we should get out and drive while we can. With lack on employment, high cost of fuel and more people getting laid off because of the high cost of travel. It doesn't seem very rosy.

Yes, and I just read financial news that in spite of the 2.2 million barrel cut by OPEC, and more by other producers, the price of oil was down another 8% today (under $40) from disappointment that the cut was not greater. The greedy bastiges appear to have stabbed the golden goose called "Demand" in the heart this time...they don't care; their money is safely in their bank accounts now. If they're smart they've put it into gold; as the TV shill sez "it's value has never gone to zero".

[Ted S.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

With the experiences I had with 3 GM products in a row in the seventy's and early eightie's, (and being absolutely ignored by the dealer thru all of this), I wouldn't buy one of their products on a bet. Except for the Corvette, they make JUNK. Why don't they put the current Corvette engineers in charge of the company?

GM has come along ways since the early 80's. At that point in time you may have had an arguement, but that's pretty much out the window these days. With statements like this you can still see the stigma GM and the other US manufacturers have had to overcome.

My biggest beef with GM and the others is they are now shipping their factory jobs out of the US. If we bail them out only to close US plants and export jobs, what's the point? Part of the problem has been getting competitive labor rates and competetive work ethics. The UAW has prevented both of those from happening.

[Henry S.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

We can't all be college graduates; some of us had to have less important jobs. Our role was to be a "toe" instead of the "brain". The point here is collective bargaining allows "toes" to think they're worth more money than they actually are, and it worked until the world illuminated reality.

So Chuck, if the "toe" in charge of attaching the seat belt forgets and there's a crash and burn, where on the "important" scale is that job??? Just wondered.

[Kenneth T.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Well?

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

[Chuck S.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

So Chuck, if the "toe" in charge of attaching the seat belt forgets and there's a crash and burn, where on the "important" scale is that job??? Just wondered.

Much like gluing the tiles on the space shuttle, entrusting such an important job to a single "forgetful toe" would be gross negligence on the part of the auto company.

The only sensible thing for the union to do would be to require one "toe" to install the seat belt, a "toe" to observe the installation, and another "toe" to observe the observer.

Of course, if the assembly plant has been moved to Mexico because seat belt installation is costing way too much, and is still not being done properly, it only takes one hungry Mexican "toe" with good memory.

The Mexican "toe" earns about 1/10 what domestic union "toes" make, and if he has memory problems, you let him go and get another one with a better memory. Remarkably, after the first "forgetful Mexican toe" is let go, there are no more problems with Mexican "toe" forgetfulness (!Ayyyye Chihuahua! No mas dinero, no mas tortillos por la familia!).

Only ribbing you, Henry.

I'm exhausted from talking about GM's future. Whatever blame there is to be assigned to the responsible parties has been discussed. The damage has been done over decades, and frankly there is nothing that can be said at this point that will alter that outcome. It is out of our hands; if it was ever in them.

General Motors' demise would be a surreal experience for me personally; it would rank right up there with having seen just about everything in my lifetime. I would greatly mourn their passing; particularly, since I own two relatively new GM cars. I would greatly regret the impact such a failure would have on the present employees and retirees.

I know the affect on employees and retirees would be devastating. I have a close friend that worked for GM his entire career, and last at Delphi Technical Center in Juarez. He had a sudden onset heart attack/stroke at the fitness center, and nearly died. They never expected him to regain conscousness. The doctors recommended "pulling the plug", but his wife Linda, is a devout believer and refused to let him go. She steadfastly believed that God wanted Ted to live, and could bring him back. She prayed with the entire family, friends, and our church for his recovery...her faith was rewarded.

The doctors were astounded. He not only survived, but after lengthy rehab is able to speak and maintain most normal activities with few incoherent lapses. He was an engineering professional and had made good money with GM his entire career. They have a very nice home and live well.

He wasn't ready to retire, but he had no choice...once the medical leave ran out, he had to take the disability retirement. They are able to maintain their lifestyle because of GM's good retirement and good planning. To be told now it was all going to end because people could not agree to compromise would be too much for me to bear, but the faith that brought them through earlier would bring them through again. The Word says for Christians to be content in all situations, because God will meet their needs...I'm sure they are confident of that and would wait to see what the Lord has for them.

For the sake of the country, I'm praying that this is all going to work out OK.

[Henry S.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

The only sensible thing for the union to do would be to require one "toe" to install the seat belt, a "toe" to observe the installation, and another "toe" to observe the observer.


Chuck, I understand. You add the inspector and his sidekick you end up with 5 toes on one seat belt. AND you know when you get five toes together it's tough to separate them. HAHA

Sorry to hear about your friend Chuck. It sounds like he is strong willed and a pretty tough cookie. Faith is the strongest cure there is. Our prayers are with him and his family for many more holidays to come.

The GM, Ford and Chrysler situation has been explored from all sides here on the forum and we all have strong opinions about what should be done. Many out of frustration for the pickle they are all in. I'm sure there's no one here on the forum that want to see them lose their job or have a plant or company go under. We all dearly love our Corvettes or at least the Corvette hobby so we're pulling for the General to survive.

Happy Holidays to everyone here on the board!!

Take care,
Shooter

[Chuck S.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

...Sorry to hear about your friend Chuck. It sounds like he is strong willed and a pretty tough cookie. Faith is the strongest cure there is. Our prayers are with him and his family for many more holidays to come...

It is less about the character of the man, than the fact that he has a loving and Awesome God that recreated him as a living testimony. Let those that doubt try Him.

God bless you, Shooter, and Merry Christmas.

[Chuck R.]

Re: My overly simplistic opinion

1) Seven digit canserous upper management needs to be weeded out.

2) Unions need to get real and help save their own collective "assets".

3) They need to dramatically pare down their product lines to manageble levels.

4) Product quality needs to take a serious qulity upswing.

Chuck

[David D.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Yes, and I just read financial news that in spite of the 2.2 million barrel cut by OPEC, and more by other producers, the price of oil was down another 8% today (under $40) from disappointment that the cut was not greater. The greedy bastiges appear to have stabbed the golden goose called "Demand" in the heart this time...they don't care; their money is safely in their bank accounts now. If they're smart they've put it into gold; as the TV shill sez "it's value has never gone to zero".

She got down into the $34 and change range today. Some predict into the $20's then I believe it's going higher....much higher in 2009.

Gold is going to go thru the roof (as will it's seester -Silver)