The beginning of the end?

[Chuck S.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Shh, Shhh, Shh...There there, Henry, everything is going to be fine.

I'm sure that those of us that said mean and hurtful things about unions, and somehow implied that the unions may have had something to do with GM's condition have not put a lot of thought into those comments. And, even if some of it was true, it certainly wouldn't be true of our fellow NCRS members.

I totally agree that we shouldn't discuss the union's role (IF ANY) in GM's dire straits because it could be disrespectful to you, George, and other former union members. Like religion and politics, this thread took an extremely distasteful turn for some through no fault of the OP...we should add "union bashing" to religion and politics on the short list of forbidden topics.

Go back to sleep now, and dream of past, more pleasant times. Dream of 57 Chevy two door hardtops, "power packs", a horse for every cubic inch, and Corvettes with fuel injection. Dream of when Ford was the only competition. It's only about a week until Uncle Santa will come and help us all out of this mess. Of course Uncle Santa doesn't own a diamond mine...He is just borrowing the wealth he's distributing to the needy, on the hope that he can later extract it back from all of us. I hope we are all having a good year.

The new year might be a good time to resolve to go to church more often, and ring up the Big Guy frequently...but we don't need to talk about it.

[Duke W.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Yeah, yeah, so I and others criticized the UAW and get labeled "union bashers". I also criticized GM management even suggesting that the CEO should be replaced. Doesn't that make me a "management basher", too, but no one is taking us "management bashers" to task.

When people ask me who is to blame for this whole mess, my response is that the better question is who NOT to blame. The list is a lot shorter.

The Pogo comic strip quote says it all!

Duke

[Terry M.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

FOR RELEASE: 2008-12-12

CONTACTS

GM Announces Significant Production Cuts for Q1 '09

Moves In Direct Response to Rapidly Deteriorating Market Conditions


DETROIT - General Motors announced today a significant reduction of planned production for the first quarter of 2009 due to the ongoing and severe drop in industry sales, which were down 36 percent in November overall and 41 percent for GM (2007 vs. 2008). The impact of these and recently announced actions to adjust production with market demand, will result in the temporary idling of approximately 30 percent of GM's North American assembly plant volume during the first quarter of 2009 and will remove approximately 250,000 units from production.

The following U.S., Canada and Mexico operations impacted by today's announcement include:

U.S.:

Ft. Wayne (Ind.) - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Light Duty Regular and Extended Cab
Flint Assembly (Mich.) - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Heavy Duty Regular and Crew Cab & Medium Duty
Wentzville (Mo.) - Chevy Express, GMC Savanna
Lansing Delta Township (Mich.) - Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia, Saturn Outlook
Pontiac Assembly (Mich.) - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Heavy Duty Extended Cab
Spring Hill (Tenn.) - Chevy Traverse
Fairfax Assembly (Kan.) - Chevrolet Malibu/Hybrid, Saturn Aura/Hybrid
Arlington Assembly (Texas) - Full Size SUVs: Chevy Suburban, Tahoe & Tahoe Hybrid, GMC Yukon, Yukon XL & Yukon Hybrid, Cadillac Escalade/Escalade ESV & Escalade Hybrid
Lansing Grand River (Mich.) - Cadillac STS & CTS
Orion (Mich.) - Chevy Malibu, Pontiac G6
Detroit-Hamtramck (Mich.) - Buick Lucerne, Cadillac DTS
Shreveport (La.) - Chevy Colorado, GMC Canyon, Hummer H3 & H3T
Bowling Green (Ky.) - Chevy Corvette, Cadillac XLR
Wilmington (Del.) - Pontiac Solstice, Saturn Sky, Opel GT
Canada:

Oshawa Consolidated - Chevy Impala
Oshawa Truck - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Light Duty Extended and Crew Cab
CAMI - Chevy Equinox, Pontiac Torrent
Mexico:

Silao - Chevy Silverado, GMC Sierra Light Duty Crew Cab, Chevy Avalanche, Cadillac Escalade EXT
Ramos 2 - Chevy HHR, Saturn VUE, Chevy Captiva
San Luis Potosi - Chevy Aveo, Pontiac G3
As a result of these assembly plant actions, GM will also continue to assess its powertrain and stamping capacity needs and make adjustments as appropriate.
[/url].

Chuck S said:"Like religion and politics, this thread took an extremely distasteful turn for some through no fault of the OP...we should add "union bashing" to religion and politics on the short list of forbidden topics."

My original intent was to note the closing of so many assembly plants for so long, and especially the Bowling Green Assembly Plant. I thought, and still think, it might be the beginning of the end of Corvette production -- regardless of whether GM continues as a producer of automobiles, and if or how they receive support from the government or taxpayers. I honestly didn't foresee the thread going into the areas it did. I guess my crystal ball has stopped working too.

It is to the moderator's credit they have let this thread continue, and props to all of us for remaining civil throughout.

[David D.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Yeah, yeah, so I and others criticized the UAW and get labeled "union bashers". I also criticized GM management even suggesting that the CEO should be replaced. Doesn't that make me a "management basher", too, but no one is taking us "management bashers" to task.

When people ask me who is to blame for this whole mess, my response is that the better question is who NOT to blame. The list is a lot shorter.

The Pogo comic strip quote says it all!

Duke

I have to agree with Duke....I don't bash the Union, any more than they deserve, in my opinion.

About 45 years ago, I worked for GM and was a UAW 'forced' member for the 2 years I worked there. I then smartly moved on to IBM and completed 30 years with them, without ever having a need for a Union, and made very good money, have fairly good health coverage and we have a pretty decent (at least so far) pension plan, in my opinion.

My personal experience as a UAW member was this......
1) I had no real choice, to whether or not I joined. It was put to me, if you want a job here, you must join the union. With the exception of getting into a management level or engineering development level. Starting out, I was real happy, but very surprised, because of the money I was making, basically as a non-schooled, non-skilled worker. My dad also worked there and he was making stupid money (in my opinion) as a machinist.
2) I was a young and very gung ho but I would see guys sitting around/taking forced or requried breaks, a lot. I actually didn't take a break one time to complete a small task that had been sitting for some time. I literally got my rear end chewed out for doing this, because as it was put to me....It was that 'lazy' (my words) mans union job security and I was NOT to do his job. Plus I had to take the break and stop work. That was the biggest shock to me. I found out if this guy got it done to early it would make management realize they could do better, so they were deliberately slowing things down to work this and other things for leverage later on. This, in my opinion, was wrong on so many levels. So I left and went back to school......completed my EE degree and went with IBM. Never had any similar problems, and as I said, I made good money with no Union required.

These are just my experiences and opinion as to why I am not happy with the UAW, but like Duke, I also see so much more blame that is shared with Management etc......It would be my opinion, that Union's had their place back 30-40 years ago, but there are enough governement rules in place now to where I see no further need for them, and yet people can be paid appropriately.

Now don't get me going about governement and those opinions. The country and all that is happening all at once lies square on their shoulders and they are not getting better, their just growing at an alarming rate, and we are being socialized to where we should all be seriously afraid.

David

[David K.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Henry, thank you for your post. I hope it takes this thread into a different direction. I had no idea how bad a person I was for being tied to a work space/machine for as little as 10hrs. a day and as much as 12hrs. a day. Not to keep this going, but unless you were there and remember what it is to be incarcerated and selling your life by the hour, without seeing the sky, conversing at normal levels when there was a moment to be near someone. I hope no one here will look back as I do and then realize that the time you sold is gone forever. You can't buy it back. The thought that someday you will have the money to do what you enjoy, will come back at you with a broken and sick body, that you can't afford to maintain. Maybe you last sentence, is the affordable answer for the person and the nation. I am sorry that I have now taken this thread back to where it was, just hope some will see what others lives have been are or will be. The money you get for your service, is not free.

There are times that maybe some of the people in management should be unionized so that labor can vote on how they are compensated.( I didn't say owners) No one seems to put a stop watch on their activites in the office, or how long they are leaning against the secretaries desk, etc.

[Henry S.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Shh, Shhh, Shh...There there, Henry, everything is going to be fine.

I'm sure that those of us that said mean and hurtful things about unions, and somehow implied that the unions may have had something to do with GM's condition have not put a lot of thought into those comments. And, even if some of it was true, it certainly wouldn't be true of our fellow NCRS members.

I totally agree that we shouldn't discuss the union's role (IF ANY) in GM's dire straits because it could be disrespectful to you, George, and other former union members. Like religion and politics, this thread took an extremely distasteful turn for some through no fault of the OP...we should add "union bashing" to religion and politics on the short list of forbidden topics.

Go back to sleep now, and dream of past, more pleasant times. Dream of 57 Chevy two door hardtops, "power packs", a horse for every cubic inch, and Corvettes with fuel injection. Dream of when Ford was the only competition. It's only about a week until Uncle Santa will come and help us all out of this mess. Of course Uncle Santa doesn't own a diamond mine...He is just borrowing the wealth he's distributing to the needy, on the hope that he can later extract it back from all of us. I hope we are all having a good year.

The new year might be a good time to resolve to go to church more often, and ring up the Big Guy frequently...but we don't need to talk about it.

WHEW! Thanks Chuck, I feel better now. I got a full 8 hours of slumber with only 2 wee wee breaks. Very good night. Again THANK YOU for helping me get thru it. It is refreshing to know there are friends here that can help out in that time of need.

Duke, You are correct in that there is enough blame to go around to ALL sides of the automakers mess. They all had input as to where they are at today. The union members on the floor and many in management simply did what they were paid (or told) to do. The higher ups in both management and union are the ones that need to held accountable. Many if not most on this very board had or have jobs that started in a union shop. Some used that as a stepping stone while others dedicated their careers to that trade. And this is not to bring judgement to any of those decisions. The statement lost in the post was the one to do with our foreign trade. We, all of us, have helped in allowing almost EVERY SINGLE PRODUCT we produce to be replaced by foreign imports. We stood by as we allowed our American companies to move our clothing, shoe, toys, electronics, tools, automobiles and on and on production to foreign lands. At some point the American people need to decide if they are in it for themselves or their country.

[Clem Z.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

not all retired union members get free medical insurance as a friend pays $1K a month for him and his wife since they are not old enough for medicare. i understand the retired UAW members pay little or nothing for theirs. mrs clem and i pay over $400 a month for medicare and our supplemental

[Chuck S.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

...The statement lost in the post was the one to do with our foreign trade. We, all of us, have helped in allowing almost EVERY SINGLE PRODUCT we produce to be replaced by foreign imports. We stood by as we allowed our American companies to move our clothing, shoe, toys, electronics, tools, automobiles and on and on production to foreign lands. At some point the American people need to decide if they are in it for themselves or their country.

No, actually I did see the foreign trade statement; it is a somewhat related, but entirely separate and much more complicated line of discussion.

You don't have to be a union member to see that our goverment has allowed disparity in trading relationships, and to be annoyed and frustrated with that condition.

The problem is that, because of our knowledge and skills, our country has made all of us wealthy by exporting goods and food to the rest of the world. As the rest of the world acquires the knowledge and skill to build their own products and grow their own food, our government often has made "deals with the devil" to keep export channels open in other industries.

When the employees of one given industry have been successful in demanding the most lucrative and generous benefits, those employees will be the first to become non-competitive against cheaper labor in less-developed countries. When the government is forced to allow foreign competition in autos, in order to continue selling farm products to, say, Japan, then the non-competitive industry is going to have to cut costs, or go out of business.

That's why, as you said Henry, Americans DO need to figure out if they are in it for themselves, or for the country. The best decisions are made by large numbers of people thinking for themselves, and exercising their personal choice. When people all start following a small number of leaders, without seeing the "Big Picture" and all the ramifications for themselves, they better have chosen their leadership wisely.

Unions were important to establish basic employee rights in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. After that, my opinion is unions became the means to gain ever more as our world competitiveness slipped away. Having collective bargaining leverage to demand the very best wages and benefits ultimately causes your job to be lost completely, and this has been happening for several decades now.

Building a wall of tariffs around this country to maintain the wages and benefits of endangered industries would ultimately end prospereity for all Americans sooner. In an ideal world, we would have all SEEN we were losing the competitive edge in the car/textile/electronics industries, and that we needed to give up some early gains to maintain our leadership position. We did not, and now we have to decide if we want to get what we can out of these industries, or simply leave the business altogether...the latter is a far worse outcome for employees and retirees of these industries.

Times are tough, but the situation IS WHAT IT IS.

[David D.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

I know this is the NCRS forum and the topic is "The beginning of the end" referencing GM and our beloved Corvette, but in my opinion talking about the granularities of GM, Management and the Unions is relative to having a pimple on your backside when the body is filled with Cancer, the heart is completely clogged, the brain is gone via the road to demesia.

What I mean, is that the title "The beginning of the end" is very appropriate, but, it should not be limited to just GM, and we should all start to realize that this is a reference to our way of living for probably the next decade.

If you understand what the Federal Reserve and that Turd in a suit Bernacke is all about, plus the absolute problems with their (and not our government) creation/printing of Trillions of dollars, with our being in more debt that can NEVER be repaid etc. etc.....you find that the future for our way of life is in SERIOUS jeopardy.

btw-I find in extremely humorous that Bernacke and Paulson are up for Person of the year. Never ceased to be amazed.

If you don't understand that, and are basing your future on CNBC, the Wall Street Journal, or some government talking heads, I urge you to investigate and make preparations for your future.

In my opinion, it ain't gonna be pretty.
David

[Grant M.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Chuck,

Well said. Your last couple of paragraphs are substantively about basic economics; the production and supply of goods and services will (ultimately) fall to the party (country/company etc) that can do so most efficiently. This only holds, of course, in a "free market" economy. Once tariffs, trade barriers and "back door" restrictions on free trade enter the picture, then the principle no longer works properly.

Indeed, at least one other poster in this thread has mentioned "fair trade" versus "free trade". In reality, free trade is what I think he seeks; not what we see right now in many instances, but what the essence of free trade is meant to be: if I can offer the product or service cheaper than competitors, simple logic says you should buy it from me. It's when governments get involved to skew that equation by imposing restrictions or blocking trade altogether that criticism of free trade gains favour. Lee Iacocca in his first book pointed to examples of such "back door" restrictions (the Japanese government barring Revlon cosmetics from establishing a presence in Japan because 'they didn't understand the Japanese (skin) complexion'). Others in this thread have also referred to tariffs placed on sales of American cars (the Mustang was an example Iacocca used) in Japan, rendering them uncompetitive price-wise.

But at the same time, I haven't read too many posts over the years critical of the appreciation in price/value that classic/original Corvettes have garnered at auctions like Barrett-Jackson etc. as demand for collectible models has increased against a (relatively) fixed supply. Nobody has suggested that such price "inflation" was "wrong" a bad thing or "unfair" and indeed, NCRS Flight Judged status (intentionally or otherwise) provides one benchmark against which such appreciation in value is/can be measured, with frequent questions as to how a reproduction part or modification might alter judging results and value.

The (perhaps) pending bankruptcies of GM and Chrysler and maybe Ford, are the result of numerous factors, some controllable by management and labour (design, production efficiency, quality, costs) and others (operating capital credit availability and rates, emission/CAFE restrictions, customer preferences/demand) completely beyond their spheres of influence. As some have already observed on this board, an injection of federal, state and provincial loans/credit lines really only tackles the operating capital credit availability and rates issue. Indeed, if tied as some have argued to imposed requirements to develop "greener" vehicles or even shift focus to producing mass transit vehicles, the effect of such credit assistance will actually be nullified to some degree unless there is a certainty of immediate consumer demand for these alternatives, which is by no means assured (Prius sales are down significantly after an initial increase with fuel cost hikes).

Right now, as many figures quoted on this board have shown, the ultimate survival of the "big three" rests on their ability to simply survive long enough to restructure, shed ineffciencies and consolidate/revise their product lines in order to meet the fundamental demands of the "free" marketplace: a relevant, quality product at a competitive price on a comparative basis with other offerings. The unknown "long enough" is hard to determine, but certainly it needs to be measured in months, not years. No easy task to be sure, but I would argue, one that is not (yet, anyway), beyond the realm of the possible.

grant

[Jim T.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Speculation, if the big three folded, closed down, how long would it take for the Honda, Toyota, and Nissian plant employees to vote the union in or would it not happen? Only takes a majority vote of the employees.

[David K.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

I think that depends on the fairness of the management. Many places do not have a union, because of the union at another plant, encourage the management to operate fairly. Sometimes having a union is like having the 2nd Amendment. Kind of reguired sometimes, to keep from being under the control of a tyrannical supervisor/government.

[Mark K.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

No, actually I did see the foreign trade statement; it is a somewhat related, but entirely separate and much more complicated line of discussion.

You don't have to be a union member to see that our goverment has allowed disparity in trading relationships, and to be annoyed and frustrated with that condition.

The problem is that, because of our knowledge and skills, our country has made all of us wealthy by exporting goods and food to the rest of the world. As the rest of the world acquires the knowledge and skill to build their own products and grow their own food, our government often has made "deals with the devil" to keep export channels open in other industries.

When the employees of one given industry have been successful in demanding the most lucrative and generous benefits, those employees will be the first to become non-competitive against cheaper labor in less-developed countries. When the government is forced to allow foreign competition in autos, in order to continue selling farm products to, say, Japan, then the non-competitive industry is going to have to cut costs, or go out of business.

That's why, as you said Henry, Americans DO need to figure out if they are in it for themselves, or for the country. The best decisions are made by large numbers of people thinking for themselves, and exercising their personal choice. .........

..........Times are tough, but the situation IS WHAT IT IS.

Quote: The best decisions are made by large numbers of people thinking for themselves, and exercising their personal choice.

not always in the best interest of the consumers.



1. Government and auto industry cooperation and intense government monetary support has happened before. During WW2 the auto companies were darn near conscripted to manufacture war material. And all that funding came straight from the government with the requirement to shutdown consumer production. Sure the auto companies were cooperative; they had every reason too to want to help win the war.



3. One of the crucial problems experienced by the auto industry today is the benefits that the industry pays to workers (white and blue collar). The benefits are also a legacy of the WW2 era when the government froze wages to prevent the typical inflation of a wartime environment with intense competition for workers. Benefits of all types were added to the worker total pay package and there was little effort in the immediate post war era to remove these benefits.





Some solutions that should be enacted (or at least understand from a national planning perspective): The current situation is not "what it is" because of anything uncontrollable either in the past or in present. Rather, the situation CAN be controlled and improved upon if an understanding of how we arrived at this position results in action to remove the impeditments to national growth that have been layered on over the years.

[Chuck S.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

...Right now, as many figures quoted on this board have shown, the ultimate survival of the "big three" rests on their ability to simply survive long enough to restructure, shed ineffciencies and consolidate/revise their product lines in order to meet the fundamental demands of the "free" marketplace: a relevant, quality product at a competitive price on a comparative basis with other offerings. The unknown "long enough" is hard to determine, but certainly it needs to be measured in months, not years. No easy task to be sure, but I would argue, one that is not (yet, anyway), beyond the realm of the possible...

Grant, I agree with all that you have said...it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the Big 3 can survive and prosper...IF they (union and labor) are willing to jointly accept the pain of accomodating the realities of the market and the energy sitiuation. Going into negotiations saying you're not going to accept any more concessions is a game ender. History has shown that both management and labor have looked out for their best interests on the short horizon, never considering that this all might end some day.

I don't know HOW MUCH has to be conceded to make Detroit successful in the world so they can pay legacy costs committed to decades ago, but I do know this...Everyone on Social Security has to also consider that one day the burden is simply going to force everyone retired to take less. If I realize that I'm getting less, so UAW members can maintain their benefit level, I'm going to be madder than hell.

Right now, I deeply regret that we have such paralysis in Washington on the absolutely essential need to artificially fix energy prices high to FORCE the change to alternate, greener fuel sources. Allowing market forces to work is generally best, but the forces are skewed when you dealing with a cartel. Congress could have fixed fuel prices at high levels when the prices were high, and nobody would have noticed...it would be political suicide to do it now that prices have gone back down.

Prius sales in the toilet is the perfect indicator; as long as fuel is cheap, the public is not smart enough to conserve, and the car companies are not smart enough to turn away from easy sales. I'm a staunch conservative, but on the energy issue, I'm liberal green...simply because I can see how this is all going to play out in future years.

[David K.]

Re: The beginning of the end?

Talk about cheap fuel. I just heard on the radio that the OPEC nations are going to reduce oil production by something like 2.2 something million barrels a day so that the price per barrel will increase. I guess we should get out and drive while we can. With lack on employment, high cost of fuel and more people getting laid off because of the high cost of travel. It doesn't seem very rosy.