63 brake questions
HI Guys. This is my first time on this forum and already learned lots. The reason I registered is to ask you experts a few questions regarding the standard brakes on my SWC. I bought my car in 1980 with 39,000 miles. It has 43,000 on it now. The only usage it gets now is when I have to back it out of the garage to get to a different car. The other day, when I put it back in the garage, it had no brakes. Please don't preach to me about letting cars sit. I do take very good care of all my cars. The original owner said that the only thing ever changed on the car was the clutch. So imagine my disappointment when I pulled the drums to get the wheel cylinders off so to be resleeved and found that they were all EIS brand. They fronts are 1 3/16'' and the rears are 1''. Should they have a brand name cast on them and what should the correct numbers be? Also, what should the bleeded screws look like? The master cylinder is correct down to the date code. Please advise me as what to do. I can't sleep at night.
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1963 Corvette Conv. 327/360 NCRS Top Flight
2006 Corvette Conv. Velocity Yellow NCRS Top Flight
1956 Chevy Sedan. 350/4 Speed Hot RodComment
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Re: 63 brake questions
As Chuck said, they are Delco Moraine
Front(s), date coded, cast numbers are 5459465 and 5459466
Back(s), date coded, both are cast with 5450649 but they are physically different. I have one in a box with the part number 5465039 (probably left side), the right side is probably 038 or 040.
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Re: 63 brake questions
Perry,
Welcome to the board!
The first place I always look on the old drum brake cars is the Master Cylinder.
It's cheap to rebuild the MC and the Wheel Cylinders so I would take on the task one Saturday and complete the job in a couple of hours.
If any of the cylinders are pitted I would get me a hone and shine them up, install the kits, bleed the brakes and travel the highway again in style.
1963's are kinda stylish you know!
JRComment
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Re: 63 brake questions
Thank you for the replies. Simply honing and rebuilding the cylinders is not an option because they are too pitted. I was going to have my cylinders sleeved and switch to DOT 5 fluid but since they're not the originals, I am not going to do that. I will have to find some originals, then get them sleeved and rebuilt. Anybody know where to start looking for originals. Again, thanksComment
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Re: 63 brake questions
Perry;
You didn't indicate what part of the country you are in - not that it really matters, but I live here in Florida and I had neglected the brake system on my 63 for a while as I was planning to do a major overhaul anyway. I had noticed the pedal gradually going lower and it needed a little pumping until the day I took it to the garage where I was going to do the work. The brakes failed right then and there. The master cylinder was out of fluid, much of which had been replaced by water in a rust colored gooie muck. I found the same thing in my R.F. wheel cylinder. I replaced the master cylinder with a correctly dated 63 unit (my original was stolen) and all new wheel cylinders, hoses and hardware.
The lesson I learned, at least for this climate and my limited usage, I have to check my master cylinder as a matter of routine before start up. I also switched to DOT 4 fluid (not 5) upon the advice of a number of local car collectors who told me it was much better at retarding water absorbsion than DOT 3, yet was compatible (can be mixed, unlike DOT 5).Comment
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Re: 63 brake questions
Stu,
I live in the opposite corner of the country from you. I live in Seattle. You say you didn't use DOT 5 fluid because it could not be mixed with other types but if you put new wheel cylinders and a new master cylinder on, all you had left to do was flush out the lines, right? I have DOT 5 in use on my restored 57 fuelie Nomad. It's been in there for 30 years now, about the time it was first introduced, with no problems. At that time, the only reason I used it was because it was paint friendly.
Jim,
Thank you for the numbers.Comment
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Re: 63 brake questions
Perry, on those NAPA numbers, you are more than welcome.
Regarding silicone brake fluid, I've never found a reason to NOT use it. Recently, I removed from my '60 a wheel cylinder that had silicone fluid exclusively since new, 20 years ago, and the interior was pristine. The photo below shows what I found when I opened it up.
Jim
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Re: 63 brake questions
Perry, Nothing wrong with the ones that NAPA has. Save your money my friend. Just use the part numbers so graciously given to you here and go for it.
Rebuild kits are available for your master cylinder. I have the part number or a few kits in the garage. If it is pitted then send it out for a new sleeve. Not going to get into where there as don't want to hear about it from disgrunted individuals. But I sent mine to White Post and it works fine. But send it wherever for sleeving.
Maybe time to install some new brake lines(and hoses for sure) too as you don't want to contaminate the new hydraulic cylinders. Use the steel lines as they will last a very long time and less chance of leaks than the SS ones. If you want use the silicone fluid also since you don't drive your car much. Happy Motoring, JohnComment
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Re: 63 brake questions
I just went to the NAPA online store.
The four wheel cylinders total price is $91.36 plus your tax.
As best I recall 4 originals that need to be rebuilt will probably be around $140.00 then another $320.00 to restore/rebuilt them.
Lets see $91.36 vs $460.00, easy decision for me.
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Re: 63 brake questions
Jim;
Regarding the use or non-use of DOT 5 brake fluid, previously mentioned, many belive that DOT 5, being silicone based, is impervious to having water absorbed into the system. My understanding is that this is not so. It will absorb less than DOT 4, as DOT 4 absorbs less than DOT 3. The absorbtion of water, besides the potential damage to the system, also lowers the boiling point of the fluid, and there too the temperature point where this occurs with DOT 5 will be higher than DOT 4, as DOT 4 is over DOT 3.
Probably the main attribute that DOT 4 has over DOT 5 is greater/better pedal feel, and this can be more important to those of us having manual drum brakes as opposed to those with power discs. In other words, you get a firmer prdal with DOT 4 than with DOT 5.
Stu FoxComment
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Re: 63 brake questions
Stuart,
I hear this a lot, but it sure doesn't match my experience with DOT 5.
Some examples:
See the car in my avatar? That's my bride's track car which has manual four wheel discs and DOT 5 brake fluid. Pedal is rock hard. If it was in any way mushy, she'd lose confidence in the brakes immediately and her pit crew (me) would hear about it.
My track car is the same except for power disc brakes. Rock hard pedal. Same comment about confidence applies here, even more so because I slow from greater speeds than my bride does.
Believe me when I say that, in our two track cars, pedal feel matters a lot!
All of our C1s, which of course have manual drum brakes, have DOT 5 fluid and the pedals in all of them are solid.
And finally, my boulevard cruiser, a '63 with DOT 5 and power drum brakes.... yep. Same comment.
The claims that DOT 5 fluid yields a softer pedal? Someone probably didn't get all the air out of the system. Technique definitely matters when converting to silicone fluid. The speed with which you pour the fluid, the speed with which the brake pedal is pressed and released while bleeding...... these need to be done at a glacial pace.
As far as the wet boiling points of various brake fluids. Yep, the wet boiling point of DOT 5 is slightly less than that of its dry boiling point. So there must be some moisture absorption possible. It isn't much, though. And it's certainly less than DOT 3 or 4 fluids.
As I indicated earlier, I can't find a reason to NOT use silicone fluid.
Regards,
JimComment
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