Polishing new lacquer

[Greg L.]

Well I finally managed to get my second coat of lacquer on yesterday and it turned out way better than my first attempt! No tiger stripes or mottling that I can see at all but it did form a few dry spots where I sanded the previous coat almost through, and in two spots, too the primer.

The pic of the rear deck shows a dry spot in the center of the light reflection on the pass side. I think this one was from sanding the prior coat a bit too much as the primer was just starting to show through here. There is a similar spot on one of the T-Tops too.

The pic of the whole car shows a darker spot that looks like a shadow just above the gills. This was a dry spot too that I noticed after I finished the other side so I gave it a quick shot. The dry spot went away but it shows darker from some angles. Would this spot lighten up and match the rest of the fender with a light wet sand and buff or can not much be done about it. That's kind of a moot point since I still have the final coat to put on but I'm just trying to see what I can get away with and work with when it comes time to shoot the last coat.

Oh well my goal was to try and get this coat to flow out and stay wet a lot longer than the last coat and it seemed to do that okay. For now I'll let it dry over winter and assemble the interior and engine bay so it's a running, driving car again by spring. Then when it warms up again I'll mask the jambs and hood surround and spray the last coat. But since I have it sooo close to what I think it should be(except those dry spots) I was thinking that I should practice buffing because I'd hate to ruin a good final coat after all I've been through.

So what would be the proper compounds and precedure to polish silver lacquer?

I don't know much about polishing lacquer or any paints for that matter other than a first timer like myself should only use an orbital polisher and a foam pad....oh and stay away from the sharp edges.

Any advice on products would be great too. So far I was planning on using 3M Super Duty Rubbing Compound #05955 for the initial buff but I'm not sure what to use for the final buff.

[Graeme B.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Hi Greg,your car is looking good and i have been following your progress.If you are spraying in acrylic laquer ,you can not sand the final coat with metalic paints.What you see is what you get.Then you need to clear coat to buff.Hope this helps,Graeme from OZ.

[Pat M.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Greg - my painter used only an orbital polisher and the 3M product you mentioned (I think) on the Marlboro Maroon metallic lacquer on my 70. Came out just right, and he was able to slowly control the amount of shininess and orange peel to my satisfaction. And there was absolutely NO mottling or "burn through", and it judged very well. Good luck.

[Kevin G.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Greg, Sorry I can't help you on the polishing question, but the car looks great! Can't wait to see it with the chrome on it! One quick question about the underside of the hood, on my 71 the body paint stops at the first lip I see you brought the body paint further to the center is that correct for 69?

Regards,

Kevin

[Joe R.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Greg,

My advice would be to visit a friendly local painter that has a good reputation and ask him for a little friendly advice.

The old and tried true method is to water sand with 600 gritt and buff with a wool pad with different gritts until you get the desired gloss finish.

BUT now there are so many great and easier ways to finish off your lacquer paint job it boggles the mind. Jerry Suvada (RIP) introduced me to some of the recent advances in finishing off the top coat and it sure opened my eyes and closed them to the old methods.

Visit a professional painter! Even if you have to pay for advice it will be worth the money.

JR

[Jeff S.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Joe

Do the water sand, buff & polish steps you mention apply to the metallic acrylic lacquer (color, not clear) top coats?

[Joe R.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Jeff,

I'll attempt to answer your question! With lacquer and especially with metallic topcoats you need to shoot the final coats wet. This allows the metallic colors to fall out and leave something (clear) to buff. Yes, I know most people shoot metallics very dry. Well, when they shoot them dry they have to use a clear topcoat or they won't get a lustre when they sand and buff.

Metallics are probably 90% or more clear anyway. Remember when you open the can and look inside. Lots of clear and very little metallic color on the bottom. That clear is called a binder so the NCRS judges won't know the difference. Those metallics are very heavy and fall to the bottom of the coats unless they are shot on the surface very dry. That's what some people do to keep out the tiger stripes, corn rows, etc.

So all lacquer has clear (or binders) and some paint jobs show more than others. Depends on the amount of paint and elbow grease!

It doesn't matter if you are shooting a metallic or solid color (red, black etc.) they all need to be sanded and buffed to achieve that wet look we all desire. Remember Corvettes are restored to what we want them to be and NOT what they looked like when they left the factory.

In sanding most painters now start with a 600 grit and progress to 800, 1000, 1200, 1500 and maybe over 2000 grit. This is done with a DA wet on a foam sanding pad. When the lacquer is sanded this way the buffing is a whole lot easier.

Hope this answers some of your questions however there are several methods of finishing lacquer and base coat-clear coat. Maybe some others will step up and give some more options.

JR

[Wayne K.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Greg,

I think the spots you refer to will only go away when applying your final coats. If I were you I'd finish the painting and polishing before putting anything back together. Much easier that trying to work around things.
I'd give the whole car a wet sand and give it two wet coats Like Ray suggested and hope it all flows out nicely. Silver would not have been my choice of color for first time paint job. You've got some nuggets dude. Wishng you the best.

Wayne

[Greg L.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Just to clarify, Kevin, you are correct with where the paint and blackout meet on the hood lip. I haven't resprayed the blackout yet so what you see is the silver overspray from doing the lips.

Joe, you probably gave the best advice to visit a local painter but the only problem with that is no one in Calgary still knows how to spray or work with lacquer(or at least I haven't found him). This is the main reason why I had to at least try and do it myself and with the exception of the disastrous first coat I think I might be able to pull this off.

I'm still not sure what my final coat will be... If the next color coat goes on good then that will be it, if it's too dry then the final coat will be a mix of about 1pint silver to 1gal clear. The guy that told me to do this really knows his stuff so I probably won't deviate from his advice. This should allow me some sanding if needed without cutting into the actual metalics. As far as my dryness problem goes I really don't know how to correct that unless my fan setting is still too wide. This second coat went on way wetter than the first but still not as wet as I thought it should so that may take a bit of "playing around with" yet.

At any rate I think it would be best for me to take this time between coats to try and perfect my buffing skills so that I can get a feel for what will and won't work so more advice is appreciated especially with which products to use!

Wayne, my initial intent was to do as you say and finish the paint before putting it together but it just isn't working out that way for me. I didn't realize it before but a lot of the resto shops spray the jambs first and then mask them prior to spraying the body. Even custom shops do this that turn out way better paint jobs than what we want so I figured that I should be able to do the same. This way come spring all I'll have to do is shoot the outside and put on the bumpers and trim and it will be done. Might even make it to San Jose if I'm lucky!!!

"some nuggets"? ....more like desparate or too stupid to know any better...yup, that's me!

[Bill M.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

I sanded and buffed my '65 entirely by hand. I kept the paint very thin to minimize cracking, and didn't want a power machine to remove too much paint.

I sanded with 600 first. I used one sheet for the whole car; first pass light, then as the paper got finer (it was wearing down), I went back over the whole car to eliminate 90% of the orange peel. I used the orange peel to gauge how deep I was sanding.

I then used Turtle Wax Rubbing Compound (red) by hand at 90 degrees to the sanding. I was done with the red when the sanding marks were gone. I found using lots of water is best. Don't use this coarse material with a power buffer.

I then used Turtle Wax Polishing Compound (white) at 90 degrees to the red direction. (When I use a power buffer on enamel I use this stuff only.)

I finished with Meguiar's Mirror Glaze #5 (turquoise) at 90 degrees.

I shot DuPont Lucite Milano Maroon thinned 200% with no clear. I got just a hint of mottling in one area due to the sanding. I would avoid the sanding if you want a factory appearance. See how you like the polished un-sanded finish before you decide to sand.

I did this in 1980, and the car still looks great.

[Alan S.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Hi Greg,
Good advice far beyond what I can offer.
I found the 'nuggets' grow as the desire and need to 'do it myself' grows. Thank Goodness!!!
Car is looking good. I love to 'process' pictures.
Regards,
Alan

[David C.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Greg,

I used to paint cars professionally from about 1985-95. I also did mechanical/salvage/body work also, so I wasn't painting all the time, but I did paint quite a bit. I never painted an entire car with lacquer, only used that for spot repair/insurance work, and mostly it got clear coat on top - and only rarely single stage that would have to be buffed. I used Dupont products almost exclusively. Overall paint jobs I either used Centari single stage acrylic enamel, or chromabase base and clear, or UroClear with all the associated additives.

If I were painting this car, this is what I would do:

First, I would not buff, polish, wax, compound, etc the paint until I was finished painting. Any thing you introduce to the paint could cause contamination in the form of oils, silicone, waxes etc that raise hell with paint and adhesion. I would only do the final buffing, compound etc. when finished painting. Also, the polishing will make adhesion of the next coat more difficult because you have "polished" it. One reason sanding is done prior to painting is to promote adhesion of the paint to the surface - polishing does not promote adhesion.

It's kind of hard for me from the pictures to make a dead on analysis of your situation, but I will try and offer some advice for things to look for.
Your paint does look dry to me, but then again, I never painted an entire car with lacquer. For me, a properly painted car does not need to be buffed, but that is using modern products with clear and hardener that gives you built in shine. I do remember the stories of "17 coats a hand rubbed lacquer shinning like a mirror" though. I used buffing and wet sanding to remove imperfections such as dirt, bugs or runs, or orange peel. I would wait as long as possible to buff after painting, often sending the customer away for 6 months with the car because the longer you waited for the paint to cure and bleed out solvents, the better they would come out.

One thing to remember is that anytime you buff or wet sand, you are removing paint, so you have to have enough paint on the car to be able to remove some. Also consider that you may want to buff the car again 10 or 15 years down the road because it is lacquer and may loose some shine. If your primer is showing through where you previously wet sanded, you do not have enough paint on the car

Gun distance to the surface is very important, I generally painted 1 1/2-2' feet away, maintaining even distance. But you have to be able to see the paint go on and analyze it as you are painting to make adjustments. The only way to really do this is experience - oops I screwed that up, or wow-that came out great. But you should even be able to tell how the job is GOING to come out as you are panting. You have to be able to "SEE" what you are doing as you are doing it. You can actually see the paint "lay down" when it is going on properly. "Lay it on, Lay it down, watch it flow" the old bastard used to tell me. Then there is the fine line between laying it down, or watching it run- you need to be right on the cusp. I also would always put a finger in the paint on the masked area to "see" how much paint was on it. Also use this method for seeing how much the paint has set up to determine when to apply the next coat.

The beauty with lacquer is that if you screw it up, just stop, let cure, wet sand, and paint again. You can even fix runs just by wet sanding and buffing without painting another coat if you have enough paint on the entire car.

On an overall paint job, I would move fast enough so the entire car is basically the same "wetness" on each coat. This is so that it all flows together. I guess its one way to eliminate dry spots - dry spots do not have enough paint or applied too dry.

You can see orange peel as you are painting. Orange peel is paint that is applied to dry for various reasons - it has not layed down correctly. Many factors contribute to this and all aspects of a successful paint job:

Gun pressure
Gun distance to surface
improper speed (temperature) of reducer for ambient temperature
Moving(painting) too fast.
Fan size
waiting too long between coats
and many other things

The old bastard taught me to ALWAYS read the directions on the paint can and associated products every time I painted. I think that was great advice.

When painting metallic paints, I would lay down the initial coat at regular gun distance, paint the entire car, then immediately while wet, "fog" it. This is done with gun distance around 4' away, moving quickly, and moving the gun quickly This evens the metallic in the surface. As you are painting, you should be able to see if it mottled, and see when you fix it with fogging. Some colors require more fogging that others. As I recall, silver metallic was not too bad but deep blue or red metallic were much harder to get even.

Go shake a professional painters hand - they have a death grip and really strong forearms. It takes allot of strength to hold a paint gun the same distance at odd angles and heights to paint and entire car, especially for multiple coats. So if you have felt like you arm is going to fall off and need to visit the chiropractor after painting, you must be doing something right. If you do not feel this way after painting, then you are extremely fit or doing something wrong.

After painting, wet sand as others have described 600 is probably too aggressive for areas without imperfections. I would probably start with 800 and work up to 1500 or 200. Again, you have to be able to see what is happening and analyze it as you are doing it.

Super duty compound is very aggressive. I would probably start with that and see how it goes, but it easy to burn through with it. If your paint comes out well, it may be too aggressive Then I would switch to Imperial microfinishing compound ( I always used 3M products). Then Perfect It glaze with a foam pad versus wool bonnet. I also like Imperial hand glaze before wax too.

I know this is a long winded response, but there is allot involved with painting and all the associated processes, and there are a ton of variables. I hope this helps. Good luck and feel free to hit me up with specific questions. I will try and help if I can.

[Wayne P.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

I'll be brief since you're probably already on info overload. Two coats is NOT nearly enough, nor is three if you plan to sand and buff. You must be shooting very thick if you covered it.

[Stewart A.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Greg what were you thinking silver for a first spray job. I have a great friend who has painted for 20 years and still refuses to paint silver. The colour is a bitch in all angles even if you stand and spray on a different angle can cause the stripes. Please do not try polishing the paint at this point you will most likley cause adhesion problems and contamination problems for your further coats. Wet sand some people have said to use 600 grit wet and dry paper that will cause srcatches you wont get out. i would use sand paper but try 2000 and go the other way 1800, 1500 until you are satisfied with the eveness of the finish then 2000 to get rid of any coarse scratches you may have left. You have a massive overload of responses on this and you need to really get some pro help here or you will go nuts. I am a pro at the finish stage ready for polish but I won't give you advise at this stage just don't polish it until last coat has been applied. Good luck and 10 out of 10 for having a go !!!

[Greg L.]

Re: Polishing new lacquer

Thanks for all the advice...borderline info overload but I think I can handle it! I never thought about contaminating the paint by practicing my buffing so that is a good point and I'll hold off on that.

"Two coats is NOT nearly enough, nor is three if you plan to sand and buff. You must be shooting very thick if you covered it."
This is something that I still can't figure out.... I mixed my first batch at 1-1/2:1 and ONE pass covered the car but it was very dry and a lot of it got sanded off to make it smooth enough for my next coat. This next coat was mixed at about 2 1/2:1 and it went on A LOT smoother but again ONE pass covered it all and it still wasn't quite as shiny as I thought it should be. I seem to have a reasonable gloss on the lower sides and smaller areas so I know that the gun(Devilbiss plus) is capable of a glossier finish. Maybe I'm just still moving too fast on the larger horizontal surfaces??? I really don't want to "lay it on" on the horizontal surfaces because that may promote cracking if it's too think so I really don't know what I should be doing to get more gloss in these areas. I know lacquer shouldn't be glossy before it's buffed but I do think that it should be a sort of semi-gloss or am I wrong on this?