Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

**Wayne P.** · September 6, 2008, 09:00 PM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

You need to do a LOT of research and probably find a good engine shop in your area. For starters, your engine is no where close to 11:1. At least it shouldn't be. You don't need hardened seats unless it will face extreme useage.

**Don H.** · September 7, 2008, 12:07 AM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

I agree with Wayne, only you can make those calls. Unless it will be driven almost daily I would not do the valve seats. Don H.

**Mark P.** · September 7, 2008, 01:33 AM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

Thanks for your advice on the valve seats and clarifying the compression. It appears 9.5:1 is more like it. If anyone knows a good reference book on the engine I would appreciate it.

**Duke W.** · September 7, 2008, 10:55 AM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

Most of your questions can be answered by following the ONLY OE quality/specification replacement parts rule - brands like Sealed Power and Clevite being two examples. This is the Federal Mogul online catalog:

http://www.federal-mogul.com/en/AftermarketSolutions/NorthAmerica/TechnicianResources/Catalogs/Catalogs.htm

There are many "how to rebuild..." books available. Start by looking at the Classic Motorbooks Web site.

You need to find a machine shop that understands "engine restoration" and that no "hot rod parts" are to be used an only the absolute minimum machining is allowed. Of course, this precudes "decking the block". Start by finding all in your area and visiting them to discuss the project. You may be able to get some leads from members of your local chapter.

Discuss the valve guide rebuilding options with them including the appropriate seal technology for the selected guide technology.

The original cam for you engine is no longer available and the correct replacement cam is the '67-up base engine cam, which will yield identical operational characteristics and be no problem on a PV.

Has the engine ever been rebuilt? If not, why would it need SS valves when the OE valves have lasted 50 years? The inlets may even be reuseable.

The more front end planning you do, and the better you are at keeping to the "OE replacement only" parts rule, the better the result will be.

Duke

**Mark P.** · September 7, 2008, 07:51 PM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

Hello Duke - I have a 350 crate motor in the car now but am building an origial spec motor. In order to run super unleaded what should I do at a minimum to deal with unleaded and 91 octane gas ? I would rather do as little as possible with the machine shop work. The block I purchased is a standard bore block. I will meet with machine shops this week to discuss options.

Thanks,

Mark

**Duke W.** · September 7, 2008, 08:15 PM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

You don't need to do anything other than use OE quality/spec replacement parts and hire a machine shop that understands "engine restoration" and follows your orders, but that may be the toughest part.

This subject has been hashed repeatedly on this Board for the last ten years. Your don't need hardened valve seats or seat inserts. You don't need "octane boosters" or "lead substitutes". Do some archive searching if you don't believe me.

Duke

**Mark P.** · September 8, 2008, 07:41 PM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

I appreciate all the advice from everyone. My goal is a stock motor that will be driven about 2,000 street miles a year.

I have spoke to a couple rebuilders and here is some of what I am planning to do:

1. Pistons - they both recommended OE replacement cast pistons. They were not big supporters of using hypereutectic or forged pistons for noise, heat, cost and other issues. There is quite a bit of positive remarks about using the latter so I am still not completely sure.

2. Valve Job - I will go with cast iron guides and NOT use hardened seats even though the rebuilders said they usually install them for the exhaust valves. They do the 3 angle valve jobs and will grind both seats and valves at 45 degrees to seat widths ofe .040/.060. One rebuilder said I could still have an exhaust valve evetualy recess on me but he will do it like I want it. I will not have them install threaded welch plugs in the valve lifter galley bores - the rebuilders think this is overkill.

3. Cam, Springs and Retainers, timing gear and oil pump/oil pick-up - I will use stock new OE replacement parts. The pump will probably be a Melling and the rest from Clevite or Sealed Power.

4. Block - he prefers not to line bore but will do it if needed. He said he doesn't want to disrupt the original rotation axis of the engine. He won't disrupt the stamp pad. He will bore and hone the cylinders with a torque plate installed.

5. Crank - they will polish (grind if necessary) my stock crank and then drill and tap for the harmonic balancer bolt. Should I get it balanced ?

6. Rods - I was thinking of using my stock rods but am considering using the later 3864881 rod which went into production in '66/'67.

7. Painting - I will paint the long block after installing the waterpump, thermostat, front engine cross mount per the judging guide

8. Are there bolt kits I should use to maintain originality ? Which bolts should I focus on and where should I get them ? If the Judging Manual doesn't call out the details of a bolt then do I need to worry about it ?

9. Any judging issues with just using a Felpro gasket set ?

10. Do most flight judged cars go without exhaust manifold gaskets ?

I would appreciate any comments if someone thinks I am missing the boat on something ?

Thanks,

Mark

**Steven B.** · September 8, 2008, 08:09 PM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

Originally posted by Mark Pellowski (49021)

I appreciate all the advice from everyone. My goal is a stock motor that will be driven about 2,000 street miles a year.

I have spoke to a couple rebuilders and here is some of what I am planning to do:

1. Pistons - they both recommended OE replacement cast pistons. They were not big supporters of using hypereutectic or forged pistons for noise, heat, cost and other issues. There is quite a bit of positive remarks about using the latter so I am still not completely sure.

2. Valve Job - I will go with cast iron guides and NOT use hardened seats even though the rebuilders said they usually install them for the exhaust valves. They do the 3 angle valve jobs and will grind both seats and valves at 45 degrees to seat widths ofe .040/.060. One rebuilder said I could still have an exhaust valve evetualy recess on me but he will do it like I want it. I will not have them install threaded welch plugs in the valve lifter galley bores - the rebuilders think this is overkill.

3. Cam, Springs and Retainers, timing gear and oil pump/oil pick-up - I will use stock new OE replacement parts. The pump will probably be a Melling and the rest from Clevite or Sealed Power.

4. Block - he prefers not to line bore but will do it if needed. He said he doesn't want to disrupt the original rotation axis of the engine. He won't disrupt the stamp pad. He will bore and hone the cylinders with a torque plate installed.

5. Crank - they will polish (grind if necessary) my stock crank and then drill and tap for the harmonic balancer bolt. Should I get it balanced ?

6. Rods - I was thinking of using my stock rods but am considering using the later 3864881 rod which went into production in '66/'67.

7. Painting - I will paint the long block after installing the waterpump, thermostat, front engine cross mount per the judging guide

8. Are there bolt kits I should use to maintain originality ? Which bolts should I focus on and where should I get them ? If the Judging Manual doesn't call out the details of a bolt then do I need to worry about it ?

9. Any judging issues with just using a Felpro gasket set ?

10. Do most flight judged cars go without exhaust manifold gaskets ?

I would appreciate any comments if someone thinks I am missing the boat on something ?

Thanks,

Mark

Balancing does not cost that much and I have balanced each of my engines for the past 44 years and have been completely satisfied. They run smoother and a bit more performance. Like blueprinting it brings them more in line with the way they were designed.

Have Fun!

**Duke W.** · September 8, 2008, 08:28 PM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

A few points. There's nothing wrong with hypereutectic pistons. In fact they are generally superior to conventional cast pistons and are OE on virtually all new engines including the LS7. KB hypereutectics require special attention to top ring gap due to the high placed top ring. "Engine builders" that screw this up always blame the pistons, but the cause of broken KBs is usually not following the recommended minimum ring gap, so the top ring butts and breaks the piston.

Why use a Melling oil pump.? Too many guys buy these pumps and end up with too high oil pressure. Buy a Clevite or Sealed Power replacement pump and it will be right! Replacing the oil pump is common, but the fact is that most oil pumps can be reused if they haven't ingested a bunch of debris. Inspecting and "blueprinting" a used oil pump is easy. It a very simple device.

There is little value in multi-angle valve seats unless you pocket port/port match/chamber relieve the heads as has been discussed many times. If you want maximum performance, "massage" the heads as above with multiangle seats/top cut off the unused valve seating surface and increase the inlet valve size to 1.84, which is the size used on small port head 305s from the seventies.

The connecting rods on 283s are even more spindly than the early 327 rods. The late 327 rods would be fine, but they are long out of production as far as I know, but you might be able to find a used set. However, if used they should be qualified by Magnaflux check, new bolts, and resized. This will cost nearly as much as a new set of Eagle cap screw rods for about $250, which will yield a bulletproof bottom end. Either of these rods will complicate balancing somewhat because they are heavier than the OE 283 rods,

The OE forged crankshaft should be Magnaflux inspected and measured for dimensional conformity/straightness and not arbitrarily ground, which is common. Likely your crankshaft will pass Mag and measure within production tolerance and is straight. In this case it should just be polished.

The same applies to the main bearing saddles. Alignment is easy to measure with a machinists bar and .0015" feeler gage. If they pass, no need to align bore. All to many "engine builders" just arbitrarily cut metal off the crank and block without measuring anything. That's a cheap production shop technique, not restoration. Many owners who do some of their own work can make many of these measurements themselves, and I recommend it. This way, you order the machine shop to do specific tasks, no more, no less. Most engines need nothing more than a rebore and select fit hone to each piston and a crank polish, plus a valve guide rebuild of some kind.

In any engine restoration, especially if some rotating assembly parts are replaced with stronger parts the entire rotating assembly MUST be precision balanced if you want a smooth engine. Even if the OE rods and exact replacement pistons are used, I still highly recommend precision balancing. The only time it's not needed is if you're doing a quicky rebuild to sell the car.

It's the owner's responsibility to understand the issues and manage the project if you want the best result.

Your engine orignally had a thin shim type head gasket. Most "engine rebuilders" use a thick compostiion gasket, so you loose up to a point of compression. Since your nomial CR is only 9.5, you don't want to loose any. "Managing" the CR has been discussed on the Board many times, and if the heads and block are flat to less than .0015", which is likely, you can use a thin shim gasket. With the '67-up base engine cam (which is the OE replacement for your obsolete OE cam) up to 9.75:1 true measured CR is okay with current premium gasoline.

I don't think any JGs mention anything about head gaskets, but it's easy to measure the thickness on the judging field, and OE gaskets of the fifties and sixties had a round hole at the corner that you can see during judging.

Cast iron guide inserts are okay and you can use the production O-ring and shield, but use Viton O-rings for greater service life. At 2K miles/year that should be about 50 years.

Duke

**Mike M.** · September 8, 2008, 08:55 PM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

Hi mark
Regarding you last entry:
#8. Yes, judges employ knowledge beyond the JG and expect to see the typical factory bolts.
9. A fairly complete dicussion thread a week or two ago regarding GM gaskets. Again not totally typical factory production.
10. Some straight axle guys should jump in.
and yes, balancing is essential.
Good Luck with your project.
HaND

**Patrick H.** · September 8, 2008, 09:36 PM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

Originally posted by Duke Williams (22045)

Why use a Melling oil pump.? Too many guys buy these pumps and end up with too high oil pressure.

Duke

Hey Duke,

For once can I say to you "Do your research!"

Melling makes a wide variety of oil pumps, and probably makes the ones sold by Clevite and Sealed Power. The problem is that many people think they need a high volume or high pressure oil pump when that is not the case. Melling makes a stock replacement M55 pump that will satisfy anyone's needs entirely.

**Tom B.** · September 8, 2008, 10:02 PM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

I used KB hyper pistons and file fit the top rings myself on my last build. It's easy but time consuming if you are paying a builder to do it. Since the 245 is just the base motor with dual carbs and is rpm limited by the standard hydraulic cam I'd just go with the cast pistons and save some money. I've put a lot of hard and often abusive miles on stock 283 bottom ends over the years and never had a piston or rod failure. That says something for the stock oil pump too.

I'd use the Eagle rods too instead of used 40 year old pieces and get the thing balanced. Also the 1.84 intakes and the bowl work are a good idea but not necessary unless you are looking to pick up some extra power.

Tom

**Duke W.** · September 8, 2008, 10:45 PM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

Originally posted by Patrick Hulst (16386)

Hey Duke,

For once can I say to you "Do your research!"

Melling makes a wide variety of oil pumps, and probably makes the ones sold by Clevite and Sealed Power. The problem is that many people think they need a high volume or high pressure oil pump when that is not the case. Melling makes a stock replacement M55 pump that will satisfy anyone's needs entirely.

Whatever - but I bet if you go to the various catalogs like NAPA or F-M you will get the right pump. There is some evidence that these Melling pumps may even be mislabled, as guys who supposedly bought the "standard pressure" pump ended up with their 60 psi gage pegged all the time.

I don't know who actually makes the parts for these pumps including the castings, but I bet Melling gets their castings from F-M or Dana, which probably sources them from a foundry in some third world country - another reason to inspect and do a blueprint rebuild of the OE pump!

Everyone who is contemplating an engine restoration should generate their own parts list and specify exact brand/part number that the "engine builder is to use. It's all online!!! Otherwise you get it their way, which can mean all kinds of wrong parts like high volume oil pumps and hot rod cams.

You can cruise any blog and find all kinds or horror stories about rebuilds that went awry, and in most cases the direct cause was lack of adequate supervision by the engine owner.

Duke

PS - you probably wouldn't want me as a patient. I ask too may questions.

**Mark P.** · September 9, 2008, 11:15 AM

Re: Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

I read something about problems with the Melling pumps having a casting change in 2004 causing them to break. The same castings are used on other pumps and they say stay away from these pumps:

Melling M55
Melling M55A
Melling M55HV
Sealed Power 224-4143
Moroso 22100
Moroso 22135
Canton #21-500

Someone said "This pump is fine for your average mom and pops 4000 max rpm grocery getter". Since I want a stock motor should I worry about this ?

Here is the link:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...hlight=melling

Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

Engine Rebuild Advice Needed - 1960 245HP

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