I know this subject has been beaten to death, but I found he attached on the valvoline website. Looks like this is the oil those flat tappet guys should use.
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Re: Zddp
Look, Valvoline is a good company, but like all companies they have marketing organizations, and the reduction in ZDDP in SL and SM has provided another opportunity to segment the market - hook all those guys with vintage cars that now need a "special" oil, and, of course, make 'em pay for this "premium" product. As a one time marketing guy, I know all the tricks!
The fact remains that CJ-4 and CI-4 HD diesel engine oils have more than enough ZDDP (and detergents/dispersants, anti-form and anti-corrosion additives, etc.) for vintage engines, and they are blended with the highest quality base oils - they have to in order to meet the very tough C-category performance requirments, which are tougher than S-category requirements, so you can shop for and buy the cheapest C-category oil you can find in a viscosity range suitable for the lowest cold start temperature you anticipate. That's it! You don't have to restrict yourself to one or a handful of specific brand name oils.
There is no need for "special oil" like more and more marketing messages are telling you. You have to understand the basics as I explained in The Corvette Restorer article and beware of marketing hype.
As I clearly stated in the article, SM oils in winter grades above 10W do not have to comply with the phosphorous limitation, which only applies to winter grades of 10W or less. According to this "bulletin", VR-1 is offered in a 10W-30, so if this version is rated SM it has to meet the .08% P limit or be in violation of API licensing requirememts. For the other viscosity grades that are not subject to the SM phosphorous limitation how much does it actually have? The minimum P analysis for SM (which is the surrogate for ZDDP, not "zink") is .06%, so "75% higher" only gets to about .105%, which is less than the typical .11-.12% in CJ-4, and the CI-4 range is typically a little over .12%. So apart from the 10W-30 "issue" what is the actual phosphorous analysis of VR-1? They do not say. Surprise! Surprise! "75 percent higher" sounds better than "not quite as much as CJ-4".
I expect this Valvoline product is okay for a vintage engine, but I would not pay one red cent more for it than Walmart's house brand C-category oil.
I wonder if this product would pass the CJ-4 requirements? Maybe it's just the same base oil blends as their other S-category oils of the same viscosity range with a little more ZDDP in the viscosity grades above 10W. S-category blends do not have to be as high qualilty C-category blends because the latter has a tougher oxidation requirement that some S-category blends may not be able to pass.
As a former marketing troll, that's what I'd do! That's what marketing is all about. Take the same product and "package" it for various sub-markets, especially if they will accept premium pricing with, maybe, some slight changes! Yeah, that's the ticket to my next promotion!
DukeLast edited by Duke W.; August 26, 2008, 11:01 PM. -
Re: Zddp
Hi Duke,
I thought you'd appreciate a new marketing angle with respect to ZDDP additives. At Carlisle, just north of the stage, was a nice young family selling an additive called Cam-shield. They stopped everyone who passed by, asked what year Corvette they owned, and if vintage, what motor oil they were using. When I told them I had a '65 and was using a CI-4/CJ-4 rated diesel oil, they all but rolled their eyes, and politely told me I was doing more harm than good and handed me one of their pamphlets. I read the pamphlet back in my motel though I never went back to talk to them, but I visited the manufacturer's website when I returned home.
Here is a portion of the manufacturer's argument from their website (www.cam-shield.com) against using oils intended for diesels:
"Diesel oil is designed with much higher levels of detergency and dispersency to fight the soot contamination. Like ZDDP anti-wear chemistry, detergents are a surface active chemistry and compete directly for space on metal surfaces, such as the cam lobe and lifter face. So, in practice, the effective level of Zinc anti-wear is a bit lower than what we expect it to be based solely on chemical analysis. Additionally, the ZDDP that is generally used in diesel formulas is primary ZDDP (which activates at higher engine temperatures) since a diesel engine runs predominantly at operating temperature. In a gasoline engine, we must have both primary and secondary ZDDP (which activates at lower temperatures) since the engine will experience a significant number of cold starts. Also, the viscosity modifier polymers that are used in multi-viscosity engine oil to prevent viscosity loss at operating temperature (to protect the bearings) are different for diesel oil and gasoline oil. Diesels operate at essentially the same rpm all day long and need polymers that are shear stable to protect the bearings. Gasoline engines experience many large ranges of rpm during operation and require polymers that have both shear stability and thickening efficiency capability to protect the bearings."
I never heard of primary vs. secondary ZDDP (then again, I'm no chemist), but even I can detect some half-truths in the rest of their argument (e.g., diesels may typically have narrower RPM ranges, but all passenger cars - diesel or otherwise - operate throughout a broad range of RPMs during normal use and have the same number of cold starts as gasoline engine cars). And regarding the diesel oils' increased detergent content somehow counteracting or competing with their ZDDP content, I marvel at how any third-party additive manufacturer can make such a claim with a straight face while completely ignoring any potential questions as to how well their (or anyone else's) additive can be expected to interact and blend with the existing additive packages in different manufacturers' oils (conventional vs. "synthetic" base, different API service categories, viscosities, etc.).
Regards,
LouisComment
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Re: Zddp
That's an example of a good product data sheet. Note that the 10W-30 is rated SH, which did not have a P limit. The grades above 10W can be rated SM because the P limit does not apply.
But VR-1 only meets the long obsolete CD category, possibly because the base oil blend will not meet the tougher anti-oxidation requirements of the latest CJ-4 spec.
They also list the P analysis, but it's only equal to the CJ-4 limit of 0.12%. I would still use Walmart's house brand (CI-4, last time I saw it), even if VR-1 was priced the same, but I expect it is higher.
Louie - I agree. These additive vendors come up with all these convoluted arguments that I have never heard of, and I am very suspicious. There is only one kind of ZDDP that I know of, and the temperature that is important is the temperature at any microscopic metal to metal contact point, which is very high - even on a cold start. ZDDP has been around for about 60 years and its performance is well understood.
There is little difference in the fundamental lubrication requirements of diesel and spark ignition engines, however, diesels generally operate at a much higher average output level (relative to their peak output) so C-category performance standards have typically been tougher than S-category.
Prior to SL when the first S-category P limit was implemented, most primary S-category oils also carried the then current C-category as a secondary rating, so they were acceptable for diesel engine warranty coverage by most manufacturers.
But current S-category oils in winter grades of 10W and below cannot pass the C-category anti-wear tests due to the P limitation that applies to these OE recommended viscosity grades for currently produced cars.
Most current CJ-4s also carry a secondary SM rating because they easily pass all the S-category tests and their 15W winter rating exempts them from the P limitation that applies to OE recommended viscosity grades for currently produced cars. To me the secondary SM rating reduces all these "diesel engine oil is not good/no good/bad for vintage gasoline engines" arguments to utter bunk.
DukeLast edited by Duke W.; August 27, 2008, 10:40 AM.Comment
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Re: Zddp
The ZR-1 is about $4 a quart at Checker, I buy it by the case and save 10%. I am not sure about Walmart oil.Comment
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Re: Zddp
15W-40 CJ-4s average about $2.50 in quart bottles and about $2.25/quart if you buy the typical gallon jugs.
"I am not sure about Walmart oil."
What are you not sure of? The price?Comment
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Re: Zddp
Horse hockey!
They are FOS! I have run diesel oils in EVERY vehicle that I have ever owned. I started running it when the specification was MIL Spec 2104-A and have run all subsequent designations with the exception of the current CJ-4, the only reason being that I have not run it is that I still have about 1/2 a drum of CI-4 left.
I had cars that ran over 200,000 miles without any internal problems in the '60's. You could remove the valve covers and there would be NO residues what so ever. Never a camshaft problem. The only engine problem that I ever had was the bottom end of a 454, and that was due to oil temperature (300+
Just another version of the proverbial snake oil
Dick WhittingtonComment
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