How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

[Paul B.]

Hi,
I saw a roughish '63 the other day with the original window sticker confirming RPO J65. From what I read on the Vette facts page, 5000 (25%) of '63's were delivered with metallic brakes? Does this option add anything to the value or desirability of the car? It's a two top 340 car with a four speed, AM/FM, posi and nothing else.

Thanks,
Paul

[Duke W.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

Their is no way to judge them during Flight judging, so from that standpoint they are worth nothing.

However, there are still some J-65 junkies around, like me, who like the fact that my car still has the J-65 system (though with 70s vintage replacement drums), and I encourage others to keep their J-65 systems intact, if possible.

J-65 is an extremely long lived system - 100-150K road miles on linings and drums, so during a restoration, the drums and linings can often be reused with just a cleanup if plenty of wear margin remains (Make sure each drum and lining goes back to the exact location it came from.) with just a rebuild/replacement of the hydraulic components, which is relatively inexpensive.

NOS J-65 linings are very rare and expensive, so for typical vintage Corvette use (and judging), paying big bucks gains you nothing in terms of judging points or performance. The J-65 linings are a bit finnicky and cantankerous for road use (They need to be warmed up for full braking performance.), but perform very well in race track hot lapping.

So unless you do weekend club events at racetracks (big, fast tracks like Willow Springs, not parking lot autocrosses) you are better off buying OE replacement organic linings as they are more than adequate for normal road use and deliver full braking performance during the first stop from a cold start.

Duke

[Stuart F.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

I agree fully with what Duke has said. I too have a 2-top 340 HP which I ordered with the J65 option. I only recently pulled the linings in favor of Matrix Ceramic in an attempt to duplicate the metallic brake performance, and they come close, but I would still love to have the old J65's back. Mine were starting to loose there pads (floating in the drum as the rivets let go), and I looked for years for replacements, for which I didn't need a second mortgage for, without luck.

I recall a number of experiences where they saved my behind, and still others when I ran into things like pickup trucks when they were cold. I once darn near put a passenger through my windshield who wasn't belted in, and another time in a road tour when I had to stand on them to avoid contact with the Vette in front of me and had a C-4 slide by me on my left cause he couldn't brake with me. All my junk like audio tapes in the back ended up in my foot well.

When they are working, they really work. I loved them for as long as I could keep them.

Stu Fox

[Duke W.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

Parity error... The J-65 friction material is NOT riveted to the shoes. I think the segments are actually welded, but they are definitely not riveted!

There were some aftermarket "metallic linings" available back in the sixties called "Velvetouch" . I don't think I've ever seen a set, but maybe they were riveted.

Duke

[Jerry G.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

Velvetouch(or an equivalent)are still available. We racers use them. The guy that does them is in Oregon or Washington state. I don't remember off hand. If someone really wants the information I can go dig around.

[Stuart F.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

Duke;

Guess I mispoke when I used the term rivets, but the pads that let go on mine had two (2) little nubs sticking out on the centerline about an inch or so apart with matching depressions in the shoe. They appear to be rivets, but perhaps are just locating pins or very heavy spot welds.

My rear shoes and drums (the ones that were loosing their pads) were replaced in 1963 in Las Vegas. We came in off a hot desert run, parked on an incline at a motel, and set the E-brake. The next morning we discovered the shoes welded to the drums, and they had to be cut off at a local Chevy dealer and replaced. As far as I know, they used GM replacement parts back then, but I could be wrong.

Stu Fox

[Duke W.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

...never heard of that problem. I bet the parking brake was dragging.

If the work (which I imagine was on warranty) was done in 1963 at a Chevrolet dealer, they used GM service part shoes, which are identical to OE, however, I don't see what you describe on my OE shoes, which are in a box about half worn.

Duke

[Stuart F.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

Duke;

We had just come in off the desert where we were running 130+ mph in 100+ heat, then we had to whoa down for the outskirts of town. The E-Brake was fine. We should have just put it in gear to hold it. I'm sure you no doubt have run that fast for a sustained period, but did you do something dumb like put the E-Brake on? Probably not.

Have you ever had any pads come off? I was surprised when I found the floaters. I was having my radials put on and the alignment done, and the good men at the goodyear store let me go out into the shop and pop the drums for an inspection.

I still have the shoes and floaters. Perhaps I can through one of the pads in a padded envelope and send it to you so you can see of what I speak.
Send me an address by E-Mail and I'll mail it off to you.

Stu Fox

[Alan D.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

Duke, Sometime in the early 70's I replaced my rear shoes and drums since moisture glued the shoes and drums together. Got GM parts for all which are still on car. Saved the drums which still look fine and plan to put back on sometime this year, however "(Make sure each drum and lining goes back to the exact location it came from.) "
So what would be my best course of action here??

[Stuart F.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

Alan;

I changed mine a few months back - first tried to use replacement drums which didn't work out, then had the originals cut and put them back on. At first I had them mixed up until I realized each had left a unique print (hub to drum) where the aligment hole w/tab left an impression on the hub. I don't know if it is too late for you to see this or not. You can only be wrong left to right (front or rear), not front to back, so that makes it a little bit easier. Just look at them close and you may see of what I speak.

Stu Fox

[Duke W.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

Duke;

We had just come in off the desert where we were running 130+ mph in 100+ heat, then we had to whoa down for the outskirts of town. The E-Brake was fine. We should have just put it in gear to hold it. I'm sure you no doubt have run that fast for a sustained period, but did you do something dumb like put the E-Brake on? Probably not.

Have you ever had any pads come off? I was surprised when I found the floaters. I was having my radials put on and the alignment done, and the good men at the goodyear store let me go out into the shop and pop the drums for an inspection.

I still have the shoes and floaters. Perhaps I can through one of the pads in a padded envelope and send it to you so you can see of what I speak.
Send me an address by E-Mail and I'll mail it off to you.

Stu Fox

My car had several hundred miles of race track hot laps in the mid sixties, and in the summer of '67 I made it from the CA/NV border to The Strip in 18 minutes at a steady 130 MPH/5000 revs indicated. Earlier that summer I also made a round trip to Phoenix and spent some time cruising at 100-110 in 110 degree heat, but neither of those episodes included any heavy braking.

In 1968 I had the rear shoes and brake cables replaced due to what I though was a sticking right parking brake cable, but they never seized - just seemed to run hot and the RR had too much braking effectiveness due to running hotter than the others.

I can't remember what I did with the SWC in the sixties, but when I ran the Cosworth Vega in track events during the 80s and 90s I never pulled on the parking brake in the paddock. What can happen is the hot drum contracts and can cause the parking brake to jamb.

If you can post a photo of the "rivet", I think that would be most helpful.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

Duke, Sometime in the early 70's I replaced my rear shoes and drums since moisture glued the shoes and drums together. Got GM parts for all which are still on car. Saved the drums which still look fine and plan to put back on sometime this year, however "(Make sure each drum and lining goes back to the exact location it came from.) "
So what would be my best course of action here??

The OE J-65 drums have the specified 20 microinch finish so new shoes will break-in with normal driving, and what happens is that each shoe "forms" to the drums as they are run-in. If the J-65s are used very hard - like racing - the wear surface will develop heavy scoring.

This is not a problem until you install new shoes that are not mated to the scored drum. This can cause the two to never seat unless you do a somewhat slow and thoughtful break-in, which is usually accomplished by short duration light to moderate braking over several hundred miles.

If you use a previously used drum with new or used shoes, you need to do a very slow and concerted break-in procedure as above.

The other alternative with new shoes and used drums is to turn the drums and then hone the surface to the GM specified 20 microinches with fine stones. This will facilitate rapid break-in as was the case when everything was new from the plant.

Your case - unmatched used drums and shoes is the worst case - but assuming the OE drums are not badly scored, I would just install them and do a very slooooooooooooow and easy break-in.

The front rotors of my Cosworth Vega are scored silly from all the hot laps and six sets of front pads, and if my post event inspection showed they needed replacement before the next event, I would do that immediately to allow a few hundred easy road miles of breakin to seat the new pads to the scored rotors prior the next track event, and this procedure worked out fine. I never found a Porsche, Ferrari or anything else on steet rubber than could out-brake me!

One thing I have always noticed about new pads and rotors (and I think this can also be said for new shoes and drums) is that they tend to be over sensitive. This was the case with my MR2 at it's first track event when it was a few month old. Initial application was severe, but by the second day when the rotors had developed a nice score pattern, initial application was much more progressive and the brakes were much easier to modulate.

Duke

[John G.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

My early build '64 (#332) came equiped with J-65. Seems the J-65 option wasn't necessarily meant for the L-76/84 cars, only. My car came with the 300 hp engine. .. The shoes and drums are original. Guesstimating about 45-50% wear, thus far, the shoes look to have some decent life left in them.

Whatever 'glue' or attachment system the manufacturer used back in the day to keep the segmented pad(s) in place on the shoes is still holding fast, in my case. No floaters, as what happened to Stuart.

The 'power brake' effect, once the brakes are warmed up, is amazing. I don't know if J-65 can give a stock disc brake system a run for the money, vis-a-vis, but it sure seems like it could! . .. JMO, of course. ..

So, what does the above have to do with the original thread? .. Just something to talk about. .. ..

[Duke W.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

J-65 was available with any option combination except Z-06 and J-56, but it tended to be most common on L-76 or L-84 cars.

If you look at the 1963 Corvette Shop Manual specifications section, you will read that the method of attaching the lining segments is "welded".

J-65 will haul the car down as well as disk brakes with the same tires, but they require much greater pedal modulation skills because of the highly non-linear relationship between pedal effort and deceleration due to both the self-energizing effect and the highly variable friction coefficient.

The Washburn Team 1963 race notes indicate that due to problems with the HD brakes they ended up with essentially a J-65 system, and mine never failed to haul my car down from 140 MPH out of Turn 1 to 80 MPH at the entrance to Turn 2 back when I hot lapped Kent in the sixties.

They were also optional on full sized cars, and I believe they were part of the police package. For the drum brake era, there was nothilng better.

[Alan D.]

Re: How desirable/rare are metallic brakes on a '63?

Could this be what is called a rivet? It's not but one may think it was.