67 French Locks on Manifolds

[Mike M.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

Sorry, meant to mention the finish is natural steel (NOT Stainless),
obviously, originally painted engine orange on the outer side.
HaND

[Joseph T.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

Mike,
I don't like to disagree but I own two early 1967 327/300 HP cars serial Numbers 3,37X and 4,25X and I know they both had complete or a portion of the french locks and spacers on the exhaust manifolds before restoration. Also, I thought in 1967 the exhaust manifolds were not attached to the engine during the engine painting process therefore no orange paint on the french locks. Please correct if I am wrong.

[Stephen L.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

Jerry Fucillo,

Could you post a close up photo of your exhaust manifold bolts with no french locks?

Possibly the French locks were eliminated in favor of a different bolt on Small Blocks as the 67 year progressed. This could explain the early/late dispute.

The photo I posted is of a Big Block!!

[Mike M.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

Hi Joe, good question.
My understanding is just the other way.
I was under the impression that earlier engines were painted without the exhaust manifolds, then added sometime during M-Y production.
Hopefully, some of the GM historians should jump in with those details.
Sorry, I don't have the patience to wade through the archives. (Actually, I not really sorry)
All of the original '67 SB's that I have owned and seen have evidence of engine paint on the manifolds.
Even if the visually obvious locations were devoid of any paint, there would be paint remnants on the Alternator boss or under the bracket.
I'll look and listen.
HaND
PS: you just had to stir it up, didnt ya'

[Joseph T.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

Sorry Mike, I didn't mean to stir the sh*t pot, but I am totally blown away that 1967 Small blocks don't have french locks on exhaust manifolds. What next-Dogs and Cats sleeping together?
Mike, Take Care.

[Kirk M.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

So, being of the NCRS state of mind, what exactly do you do in this case. I really did not want to "argue" with the judges but feel now that I should have at least questioned some of things I was wondering about. Is it ok to say I know of cars that didn't have french locks and will judges really credit the points when the JG clearly states that the locks were present?

[Stuart F.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

Kirk;

You tell them - "We don't need no stinking French Locks!" (as the line goes from the movie).

Stu Fox

[Gerard F.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

Steve ,

Take a look at the second archived thread below.

There is a picture of the bolt I took out for my Vintage Air system. Then, further down is a picture of an end bolt on the manifold, and cleaned up bolts replaced for the compressor mount

67 S/B vin 22049, June 29th car

[John H.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

'66 and '67 small-blocks were painted prior to exhaust manifold installation, although the lower alternator bracket was in place during painting. Photo below is a close-up crop of a '66 L-79 engine during drop into the chassis at St. Louis, and clearly shows that the exhaust manifold is NOT painted, the lower alternator bracket IS painted, the engine plant-installed bolt through the lower alternator bracket into the tapped hole in the front of the exhaust manifold is NOT painted, and the bright machined surface on the front of the exhaust manifold containing the hole for the alternator pivot bolt is clearly free of paint.

I've never seen an original '67 small-block without french locks on the end pairs of exhaust manifold bolts, but I haven't seen them all, and anything is possible.

[Stephen L.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

Steve ,

Take a look at the second archived thread below.

There is a picture of the bolt I took out for my Vintage Air system. Then, further down is a picture of an end bolt on the manifold, and cleaned up bolts replaced for the compressor mount

67 S/B vin 22049, June 29th car

The bolt you pictured would not be conducive to a french lock.

Maybe someone will post a photo of the SB bolt used with a french lock, and clear up this thread.

[Ridge K.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

To Stephen L: Thanks very much for that great picture. I was having a little trouble following this thread until you posted that pic. Very helpful. Thanks again, Ridge.

[Jack H.]

Re: 67 French Locks on Manifolds

You have the right to appeal the scoring of the judges in three steps: (1) with the team judges during owner debrief, (2) with the team leader after debrief if you're still unhappy with the ruling of the team judges, and (3) with the Meet Judging Chairman after the ruling of the team leader.

Being polite vs. disgruntled/irrational is a definite plus during the process. But, keep the following points in mind:

(1) NCRS Judges are tasked to make judgement calls based on 'typical factory production'. In cases of 'atypical' configuration, the burden of proof falls upon the owner.

(2) Situations that cite to the effect, "that's the way it came from the factory," or "I've never touched it," lack the foundation of convincing proof. It's not uncommon for cars to change from their factory original configuration due to work done by mechanics unbeknownst to the original owner...

(3) In the end, the Judging Guide books are merely GUIDES, intended to supplement the judges' personal knowledge and it's that knowledge (right or wrong) that typically prevails.

(4) In the end, consider the overall impact (X points out of 4500 total) of a given judging call... Typically, 'wrong' calls make little/no difference to the outcome of the car's Flight Judging Score. But, some individuals are prone to over-reacting on this/that call based upon the 'principal' of things...

(5) Last, judging is a service performed by members for members and all members are HUMAN. I can guarantee you at any meet you go to there WILL be errors of commission and errors of ommission...that's human nature.

(6) Take the judges' inputs for what they are: personal opinion(s) of that car on that particular day. NOBODY has a monopoly on correctness! Consider deductions as inputs for further study and when you're convinced you should alter your car, then do so. But, don't do it just because an apparent authority figure said this/that or had this/that personal opinion...

[Joe L.]

Re: No French Locks on my 67 327/300

Kirk,

I have a late June 67 which I've owned for nearly 40 years now. Exhaust manifolds have never been removed. The engine has manifold bolts with a shoulder head which would obviate to purpose of the french locks.
My car never had french locks on the manifold.

Take a look at the second archive thread below for a picture of the manifold and bolt without french locks.

I ain't putting french locks on a car which never had them, and any judge is at least going to get an argument from me, before he deducts points.

Jerry----


By "shoulder head" I'm assuming that you mean FLANGED HEAD (i.e. configuration like a flat washer attached to the underside of the bolt head). French locks were never used with flanged head bolts. If you ever remove one of these bolts, you may find that the thread is a special locking-type thread (i.e. thread "deformation" accomplishes the locking just like similar configuration on self-locking nuts accomplishes the locking feature for them). It's easy to check them with the bolts out. Just clean the thread with a wire brush (NOT a die) and then try to run a nut down the threads by hand. If the nut "locks up" after a few turns, you have the special bolts. These special bolts were definitely flanged head style.

I was not aware that these bolts were ever used on a small block. However, they were SUPPOSED to have been used on big blocks from late 1967 through the end of big block utilization in Corvettes in 1974. They were used ONLY for the bolt positions which formerly used french locks.

[Gerard F.]

Here's the Manifold Bolt, Joe/Steve

Looked in my bagged and tagged bin and here is the errant manifold bolt for my 67 S/B:


This one has been cleaned up, but I have 7 more on the exhaust manifolds untouched and with no french locks. 3/8" bolt X 2" shaft. It is a flanged head rather than a shoulder head. (what do I know, I'm Italian)

Joe, there is something screwy (so to speak) about the threads. A nut goes on easy but locks up about 3/16" to 1/4" up the shaft:



Here's the head:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/9743/manifoldboltheadsmallcs0.jpg

Honest, I have never touched the exhaust manifolds in nearly 40 years and don't think they have ever been off. I took the bolt off only because it had to be replaced, with a longer bolt for the Vintage Air compressor mount.

Kirk, it is not a big deal, only about 1 point. I would argue, but only very amiably, more interesting in the history than the points.

Joe, going to be at Elk Grove, CA, NCC Chapter Meet in Sept., think I'm going for flight but not confirmed yet, real small group. Maybe see you there, probably no clams or lobsters, but maybe some Elk and canolis

[Joe L.]

Re: Here's the Manifold Bolt, Joe/Steve

Looked in my bagged and tagged bin and here is the errant manifold bolt for my 67 S/B:


This one has been cleaned up, but I have 7 more on the exhaust manifolds untouched and with no french locks. 3/8" bolt X 2" shaft. It is a flanged head rather than a shoulder head. (what do I know, I'm Italian)

Joe, there is something screwy (so to speak) about the threads. A nut goes on easy but locks up about 3/16" to 1/4" up the shaft:



Here's the head:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/9743/manifoldboltheadsmallcs0.jpg

Honest, I have never touched the exhaust manifolds in nearly 40 years and don't think they have ever been off. I took the bolt off only because it had to be replaced, with a longer bolt for the Vintage Air compressor mount.

Kirk, it is not a big deal, only about 1 point. I would argue, but only very amiably, more interesting in the history than the points.

Joe, going to be at Elk Grove, CA, NCC Chapter Meet in Sept., think I'm going for flight but not confirmed yet, real small group. Maybe see you there, probably no clams or lobsters, but maybe some Elk and canolis

Jerry----


Your description of the way the nut threads to the bolt is EXACTLY as experienced with the special locking bolts, so that's undoubtedly what these are. I had no idea they were ever used on small blocks but, apparently, they were. Also, curiously, late 1967 is when they were SUPPOSED to have started to be used on big blocks. Maybe you have a big block that is masquerading as a small block?

I don't have plans right now to go to Elk Grove, but who knows? A week from Saturday (the 23rd) I'm heading back to the northeast. You can bet I'll be at Essex Seafood not too long after I get there. I'll be in the northeast until the 3rd of September, so I'll have plenty of time for a LOT more lobster and steamed clams. I even plan to get about 8 lobster rolls the day I leave and eat them on the plane on the flights home. Who said food on airplanes is no good? Can you imagine what those other folks sitting around me are going to think? I'll almost feel so bad for them I won't be able to take the lobster rolls out and eat them in front of those poor souls. ALMOST.