Copo Corvette

[Duke W.]

Re: Copo Corvette

COPO's were VERY rare, and 99.9% of them were for trucks and commercial vehicles, police cars and taxis, not for ordinary cars. A true COPO was shown in the text section of the Corvette Order Copy, and referenced the COPO number (like "Build per COPO #1487); the plant got a copy of that COPO letter which had the detailed instructions to be followed and indicated any special parts required.

What about the "executive purchase program" - or whatever it was called - you know, the one where above a certain pay grade you could order a car, it was delivered to another GM employee on the plan to drive for about six months, and then you got it for about 40 percent off list. Weren't those COPOs that were ordered by the GM employee/ultimate purchaser.

All the engineers I worked with at Pontiac were on this plan - they drove a "six-monther" and their wives had one that they took delivery of and paid for when it finished its six month evaluation with someone else.

I was not around anywhere near long enough to qualify for that plan.

Duke

[Jim B.]

Re: Copo Corvette

I bought my 68 L79 convertible from Scuncio Chevrolet in RI in August of 1968. Scuncio was one of the high performance dealers that did business with Yenko, Motion, and the GM COPO program. They sold several 69 ZL1 copo camaro's and chevelles and campaigned several under a race team sponsored by Bob Johnson racing under the name "Strip Teaser" and 'Strip Teaser II" (Johnson is the person from whom I bought my car and whose name appears on the documentation from the dealer that I have.) They also showed me a 69 ZL1 corvette that they had but never sold (it was never titled as the dealer owners son demolished it on a joy ride)

He told me that my car was ordered special but the buyer backed out. It was bought as a racer with no options other than the L79 engine 3:70 posi and the M22 transmission it has. Later he told me that it was bought under the copo program that the dealer had going with GM. I think that most cars bought like this were not much different than what could be bought thru the dealer, but there were only a few dealers that regularly used the COPO program to order cars. Most of these were the high performance dealers who also ran race teams. I do note with interest that the M22 transmission does not show up on the production lists for an L79 car. So I don't think the COPO cars got included in the production details that were issued by Chevrolet.

Bob Johnson did show me the "special" options book for Chevrolet racing and high performance which had the ZL1 options and other racing options detailed.

Bottom line, the corvette was already a high performance car and the COPO program was used to get some of this high performance into other cars for which these options were not available. Bob Johnsons also told me that Chevrolet limited high performance COPO orders to a very few dealers.

I have some documentation of the dealer and race teams they sponsored in the late 60's and early 70's.

[Art A.]

Re: Copo Corvette












NOT TRUE!

[Duke W.]

Re: Copo Corvette

I don't know where I got the information, either, but it was my understanding, and it's been 40 years since I was with GM.

Thanks for straightening this out, but I'm still confused.



Are you saying that if Chevrolet Engineering needed a vehicle for testing - R&D - whatever - it was NOT a COPO, and the order had to be processed through a dealer?

We had an office called FLEET OPERATIONS GROUP and they ordered ALL Engineering vehicles, for employees, testing, evaluation, and certifications, etc.. When a vehicle was eventually sold to an employee, the employee picked a dealer and CEC Fleet Operations group shipped the vehicle to that dealer for delivery.

How were these cars actually ordered - through a dealer??? Or via an internal arrangement, which could be interpreted as a COPO?


Duke

[Art A.]

John stated that police cars and taxis were COPOs and actually they weren't. I believe in the 50 & 60 Police cars and taxis were ordered via the Fleet System. In more recent years by RPO .
See above.Yes, they were ordered via an internal arrangement (see above), BUT WERE NOT ALL CONSIDERED COPOs.

[Stuart F.]

Re: Copo Corvette

This is all very interesting to me. I worked for GM from 8/78 thru retirement in 11/01. During that time I only heard stories of how great the employee discount was "back in the day", primarily how one could usually make out selling a car after 6 months, etc., but with the caveat "not any more!" We usually got something like 10 t0 12 % off base and upwards of 15 to 18% on options. That's why it was cool to load the cars with options, but that actually made it harder to sell. We usually put them on one year balloon notes too, and then sold them at the end of the year while waiting for our next order. It was fun. I had a new one almost every year plus I bought "product evaluation" executive cars from the company stock as well. My sons always had a new or near new car for their use at college every year. We tried them all.

The only one time I was able to take good advantage of the program was in early 1983 I ordered one of the first Camaro Z28 H.O.,s, at least it was the first delivered in our zone. I had to wait awhile for it as they had a problem getting the stock rear end to stay together, so I had to accept it w/o positraction. I was able to track it through the GM phone system during the final engineering approvals, production and delivery. That was cool. I remember watching it off load at the dealers and got a kick out of the interest from the mechanics in the service dept. It was the first one they had seen. It was blocked up on it's springs for shipping and looked/sounded real mean when the driver drove it off.

But, as noted, I had to order it through a local dealer even though I had special approvals through the company. The dealer had just the one salesman who dealt with the employee orders. It was even more of a process than it is now, but not like it was "Back in the Day". Today my relatives can process their own orders just using my SS number. I don't even have to know about it and usually don't until I get my cut (just kidding).

Stu Fox

[Art A.]

Re: Copo Corvette

Yep, I drove a "new" car about every 6 months from about the mid 60s thru the mid 80s and usually broke even....including insurance . I only wish we had gotten the 40% that Duke mentioned.
Early on it was a %age off the base vehicle with options at cost. Later the %age off the base vehicle stayed about the same, but we paid a little more for options. Most of the time we were restricted from ordering Corvettes.........even thru a dealer with our GM discount.
We could order thru OUR fleet office and have it driven by an engineer for 'evaluation" for X amount of miles. As I recall there were about three break points, 3000, 7000, and 1100 miles. The discount %age would increase with each level, up to a max of about 15%.

And actually, as a retiree, I can still buy PEP (Product Evaluation Program) vehicles from GM, but it just isn't worth the effort.

Yep..............those were the days!

This is all very interesting to me. I worked for GM from 8/78 thru retirement in 11/01. During that time I only heard stories of how great the employee discount was "back in the day", primarily how one could usually make out selling a car after 6 months, etc., but with the caveat "not any more!" We usually got something like 10 t0 12 % off base and upwards of 15 to 18% on options. That's why it was cool to load the cars with options, but that actually made it harder to sell. We usually put them on one year balloon notes too, and then sold them at the end of the year while waiting for our next order. It was fun. I had a new one almost every year plus I bought "product evaluation" executive cars from the company stock as well. My sons always had a new or near new car for their use at college every year. We tried them all.

The only one time I was able to take good advantage of the program was in early 1983 I ordered one of the first Camaro Z28 H.O.,s, at least it was the first delivered in our zone. I had to wait awhile for it as they had a problem getting the stock rear end to stay together, so I had to accept it w/o positraction. I was able to track it through the GM phone system during the final engineering approvals, production and delivery. That was cool. I remember watching it off load at the dealers and got a kick out of the interest from the mechanics in the service dept. It was the first one they had seen. It was blocked up on it's springs for shipping and looked/sounded real mean when the driver drove it off.

But, as noted, I had to order it through a local dealer even though I had special approvals through the company. The dealer had just the one salesman who dealt with the employee orders. It was even more of a process than it is now, but not like it was "Back in the Day". Today my relatives can process their own orders just using my SS number. I don't even have to know about it and usually don't until I get my cut (just kidding).

Stu Fox

[Michael S.]

Re: Copo Corvette

I purchased a 1970 Corvette here in Nashville in 1991 from Jim Reed Chevrolet with all the paperwork and tank sticker. The Reeds had owned the car since they traded for the car in 1978. The tank sticker was marked in the COPO box with some information/numbers indicating the car was ordered through the COPO process that I cannot remember and the zone to which the car was shipped was "00", GM Engineering. The paperwork also showed the car was delivered new to GM Engineering. The paperwork with the car also showed car was released from engineering to a local franchise dealer in the area, can't rmemeber the name of the dealer, for retail sale to the first retail owner. The car even had a protecto-plate listing GM Engineering. There was also a second protecto-plate with the car listing the first retail owners information.

There was nothing remarkable about the car other than the paperwork. The car was a white 1970 Convertible with black interior, 350/300, automatic, steering, brakes and no A/C.

[Jeffrey G.]

Re: Brass hat question

I was told by an early owner that my 67' (highly optioned) was a "brass hat" car orderd by a GM executive, probably the Chevrolet Zone Manager in the Kearney, MO area. The selling dealer was Dagley Chevrolet in that city. It was sold to its first non-GM employee owner 9-months after it's build date. Is there anyway to find out the name of the Zone Manager in the Kansas City, MO area during the mid 60's?

[Art A.]

Re: Copo Corvette

Michael, Just because there is some numbers in the COPO box does not mean that it is/was a COPO built car. True COPOs were so rare that the COPO box was often utilized for other hand written information.
You didn't say the numbers were hand written, but I'm concluding that by your usage of the term "marked".

Additionally, ANY vehicle ordered by CEC (Chevrolet Engineering Center) could have been designated a copo by the initial order and then CHANGED to a PRODUCTION configuration by Engineering before it was sold.
A true COPO vehicle would have some major differences from production or the standard RPOs and most likely be CLEARLY identified by COPO TYPED on the order form or on the vin plate.
The POP issue done not surprise me as this was done on a regular basis.
Could the delivering dealer been Rinke or Hamilton?

And I just remembered the CEC Dealer number.............it was 502. Is that number on your paper work?

I purchased a 1970 Corvette here in Nashville in 1991 from Jim Reed Chevrolet with all the paperwork and tank sticker. The Reeds had owned the car since they traded for the car in 1978. The tank sticker was marked in the COPO box with some information/numbers indicating the car was ordered through the COPO process that I cannot remember and the zone to which the car was shipped was "00", GM Engineering. The paperwork also showed the car was delivered new to GM Engineering. The paperwork with the car also showed car was released from engineering to a local franchise dealer in the area, can't rmemeber the name of the dealer, for retail sale to the first retail owner. The car even had a protecto-plate listing GM Engineering. There was also a second protecto-plate with the car listing the first retail owners information.

There was nothing remarkable about the car other than the paperwork. The car was a white 1970 Convertible with black interior, 350/300, automatic, steering, brakes and no A/C.

[Clem Z.]

Re: Copo Corvette

This is all very interesting to me. I worked for GM from 8/78 thru retirement in 11/01. During that time I only heard stories of how great the employee discount was "back in the day", primarily how one could usually make out selling a car after 6 months, etc., but with the caveat "not any more!" We usually got something like 10 t0 12 % off base and upwards of 15 to 18% on options. That's why it was cool to load the cars with options, but that actually made it harder to sell. We usually put them on one year balloon notes too, and then sold them at the end of the year while waiting for our next order. It was fun. I had a new one almost every year plus I bought "product evaluation" executive cars from the company stock as well. My sons always had a new or near new car for their use at college every year. We tried them all.

The only one time I was able to take good advantage of the program was in early 1983 I ordered one of the first Camaro Z28 H.O.,s, at least it was the first delivered in our zone. I had to wait awhile for it as they had a problem getting the stock rear end to stay together, so I had to accept it w/o positraction. I was able to track it through the GM phone system during the final engineering approvals, production and delivery. That was cool. I remember watching it off load at the dealers and got a kick out of the interest from the mechanics in the service dept. It was the first one they had seen. It was blocked up on it's springs for shipping and looked/sounded real mean when the driver drove it off.

But, as noted, I had to order it through a local dealer even though I had special approvals through the company. The dealer had just the one salesman who dealt with the employee orders. It was even more of a process than it is now, but not like it was "Back in the Day". Today my relatives can process their own orders just using my SS number. I don't even have to know about it and usually don't until I get my cut (just kidding).

Stu Fox

GM made sure the dealer got the 3% holdback for the car. i bought a lot of new chevys for just the dealer getting the holdback. them days are gone as my friend sold the dealership where mrs clem worked.

[Michael S.]

Re: Copo Corvette

Michael, Just because there is some numbers in the COPO box does not mean that it is/was a COPO built car. True COPOs were so rare that the COPO box was often utilized for other hand written information.
You didn't say the numbers were hand written, but I'm concluding that by your usage of the term "marked".

Additionally, ANY vehicle ordered by CEC (Chevrolet Engineering Center) could have been designated a copo by the initial order and then CHANGED to a PRODUCTION configuration by Engineering before it was sold.
A true COPO vehicle would have some major differences from production or the standard RPOs and most likely be CLEARLY identified by COPO TYPED on the order form or on the vin plate.
The POP issue done not surprise me as this was done on a regular basis.
Could the delivering dealer been Rinke or Hamilton?

And I just remembered the CEC Dealer number.............it was 502. Is that number on your paper work?

Art,

The retailing dealer was in fact Rinke. My post was to illustrate the fact that just because a car has a COPO designation on the Corvette Order Copy does NOT mean the car is anything special. The information in the COPO box was not hand written. It was printed on the Corvette Order Copy by the computer when the order copy was printed.

There was nothing special or unique about this car other than the paperwork and where the car was delivered new. As stated earilier, just because there is information in the COPO box does not necassarily mean the car is anything special.

Thanks for the reply!

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Copo Corvette

“Any car that was ordered for purchase by a GM employee was a COPO, and they would be limited to regular production options.”

Duke I don’t know where you got this information, but it is absolutely untrue. We had an office called FLEET OPERATIONS GROUP and they ordered ALL Engineering vehicles, for employees, testing, evaluation, and certifications, etc.. GM had a special arrangement with the state of Michigan where GM would HOLD a blank title on each of it’s vehicles until they processed them thru a dealer as a new car sale. GM was/is self insured and had a supply of license plates that they would move from car to car. When a vehicle was eventually sold to an employee, the employee picked a dealer and CEC Fleet Operations group shipped the vehicle to that dealer for delivery.


”Any car ordered for internal use - engineering, marketing, etc. was a COPO and most had just RPOs - nothing special about them as they left the plant. All the press cars are COPOs.”

Again, I don’t know where you got this information, but it is also untrue.

”There are only two ways to order a car from a GM plant - either by a franchised dealer through a zone office, or by Central Office Production Order. Most COPOs were no different than customer cars - some configuration of RPOs for internal use or employee special orders - so there was nothing special about them other than they were ordered through the COPO process.”

There is only ONE way to order ANY new vehicle from ANY manufacture, and it’s thru an authorized dealer.

”The COPO process was also used to do some "specials" like the 50 427 Camaros to qualify them for NHRA racing.”

I can’t respond to this statement, because, I don’t know the FACTS, but my educated guess would be that said vehicles were ordered thru the Dealer Fleet Vehicle system……………note: this is not the same as the above mentioned CEC Fleet Operations Group.

”There is a persistant myth that there is something "special" about all COPOs, but the only thing "special" about 99 plus percent of them is that they were ordered by the central office for internal use or employee purchase rather than ordered by dealers for sale to the public.”

NOT TRUE!

I guess Al Grenning & the guy that has a COPO original sticker don't know what their talking about. I saw several COPO stickers Al had that had no special options or color combos. I suggest you talk to AL.
KEN

[Art A.]

Re: Copo Corvette

Ken,

Did Al work at Chevrolet or Chevrolet Engineering?

I don't have to talk to Al, I know how the COPO system worked and Chevrolet did not process a COPO just for the hell of it.............their had to be something special for it to be designated a COPO from the get go.

Are you referring to a COPO window sticker?

Respectfully
Art

I guess Al Grenning & the guy that has a COPO original sticker don't know what their talking about. I saw several COPO stickers Al had that had no special options or color combos. I suggest you talk to AL.
KEN

[Kenneth B.]

Re: Copo Corvette

Ken,

Did Al work at Chevrolet or Chevrolet Engineering?

I don't have to talk to Al, I know how the COPO system worked and Chevrolet did not process a COPO just for the hell of it.............their had to be something special for it to be designated a COPO from the get go.

Are you referring to a COPO window sticker?

Respectfully
Art

ART

They were tank stickers. I don't have a dog in this fight. The guy on the other post said he has a origional copo tank sticker. I am trying to figure out if he & the other guy are blowing smoke . I am sure that you know waht your talking about. No disrespect meant. I have a foundry related company & I know all the misconseptions about casting dates etc. I would like to know because a person with a real tank sticker with a COPO & no dealer code will wander.
KEN