Starter Restoration Question ....

[Bill C.]

Hey ...

A very quick question - I hope;

I understand that on a 454 4spd starter the body and nose are supposed to be painted semigloss black, what about the end-cap in the front.

Should it stay natural, or be painted on the body after it is assembled (less solenoid)?


On a side note - I have a real BEEF with the whole natural vs. painted thing. I know for 100% certain (spoke with the only other owner of the car since 72) that the starter was never taken out/removed. It has NO paint to be found anywhere. BUT I still got deducted when I was judged.

I think it is wrong that I have to restore a part to a condition that I know to be incorrect just to make a judge happy. Just becuase the manufacturer will not say Y/N to this - is not a good reason to ding people on it.

May want to consider cutting some slack on items like this.

Enough of my rant

[Jack H.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

You don't HAVE to do anything to the car you don't want to! The last time I was on the judging field I didn't see a single judge holding a gun to the owner's head(s)...

The only way you could KNOW the end plate on the starter was natural would be to have been the original owner and have taken pictures when the car rolled off the 18-wheel transport from St. Louis. Every Delco Remy starter I've ever seen WAS painted black on the main case and end cover....

[Dave S.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

Bill,
I have a very late 72 Auto ZQ3 base car that has an unpainted starter as well. The past judging history of the car indicates that the judges wanted to see it painted and deducted accordingly. It is also a 7,000 mile car with a 4 star Bowtie award. I do not plan to change mine and I'd suggest you rethink your situation. I learned a long time ago to not jump to conclusions based on a judges opinion. If you know its right then stick to your guns.

[Bill C.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

Thanks Dave -
I'm thinking to leave it as I know it was - that is how I restored it.

Maybe one day they will authenticate the natural starter, and we will not get any deductions. I can understand the judges questioning my car, becuase it was restored, but your's --- no way that should happen. A 7000 mile car, my god - how much more proof does anyone need !

[Patrick H.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

A 7000 mile car, my god - how much more proof does anyone need !

I've seen cars with less than 10% of that mileage that had been "doctored" so mileage alone doesn't verify a thing.

However, I've inspected Dave's car enough to know that the starter on that car has, in all likelihood, never been changed.

Patrick

[Joe L.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

Hey ...

A very quick question - I hope;

I understand that on a 454 4spd starter the body and nose are supposed to be painted semigloss black, what about the end-cap in the front.

Should it stay natural, or be painted on the body after it is assembled (less solenoid)?


On a side note - I have a real BEEF with the whole natural vs. painted thing. I know for 100% certain (spoke with the only other owner of the car since 72) that the starter was never taken out/removed. It has NO paint to be found anywhere. BUT I still got deducted when I was judged.

I think it is wrong that I have to restore a part to a condition that I know to be incorrect just to make a judge happy. Just becuase the manufacturer will not say Y/N to this - is not a good reason to ding people on it.

May want to consider cutting some slack on items like this.

Enough of my rant

Bill-----

I can tell you for certain that a natural, unpainted starter is "not typical of factory production". Like Jack, I've NEVER seen a starter known to be original that was un-painted. It may be that for some short period during the 1972 model year this was done for unknown reasons. Judging standards HAVE to be based on "typical factory production". If not, it would be a situation of virtually "anything goes" and, effectively, there would be no standards.

There are cases in which one might find it "necessary" for judging purposes to "make a car non-original in order to make it original". I've spoken of this phenomenon many times before. If you are absolutely convinced that the starter was always un-painted, then I suggest leaving it that way. You'll very likely take a judging deduction but you won't have to compromise on principle. On an item like this, the "hit" is very likely not going to be enough to worry about, anyway.

One other thought, though: if my original owner 69 had been originally built with a non-painted starter, I'd be only too happy to make it "non-original" by painting the starter. A non-painted starter is ugly and will rust rapidly. I hate rust.

[Dave S.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

Bill - Joe et al,
Joe - Well said and I agree with your assessment totally. This sort of thing is what makes this NCRS thing interesting. In this case I seem to remember some information that left the door open to unpainted starters but I can't recall exactly where. If I track it down I'll post it later. The interesting thing is if I were judging Bill's chassis I most likely would let it go as is.

[Terry M.]

[Mike M.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

Typical Factory Production has evolved through the documented volume of known original examples to form the basis for these judging hypotheses.
It is incumbant upon the membership to continue to do so.
This is the premise by which the judging standards were set and are ever changing.
If you think it is important, TAKE ACTION!
Could this anomoly have occurred for a day, week or a month?
Do the research necessary to prove/disprove the theory.
Check your VINs, access the registries, pole the populus,
whatever it takes to develop the data and a large enough population to make it so.
Bonus, if you write it up you may receive the recognition of being a contributor to the "Restorer".
But, then, what's one judging point really worth?
HaND

[Bill C.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

thanks everyone for such good feedback!

I decided to keep the starter natural, and accept the deduction.
I know that it was restored back to it's original appearance, that is all that really matters ....

The car has two strange items:
originally equiped with Uniroyal tires (Tiger paw) and the natural starter.

Just figures I get the car that is the odd-ball

[Dave S.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

Bill,
I assume you are basing your Tiger Paw thought on your spare or something on your documentation. The tires do have date codes embossed on them in 1972. You may want to check it if you haven't already. That may confirm your thought although it won't cause the Judging Guide to be revised.

[Kevin G.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

Bill,
I assume you are basing your Tiger Paw thought on your spare or something on your documentation. The tires do have date codes embossed on them in 1972. You may want to check it if you haven't already. That may confirm your thought although it won't cause the Judging Guide to be revised.

Dave, I thought that your WB was a 71, 7,000 mile bowtie car?

[Terry M.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

I am pretty sure the TIM & JG mentions Uniroyals -- I know it did at one time and I think it is still there.

[Bill C.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

Dave and Terry -

My car came with the dated original 72 spare Uniroyal tire.
I had Mr. Feebles (original owner) document this, he provided a notorized document stating the originality of the spare.
It is really awsome that I was able to verify every part/piece of the car with the 1st and only owner.

I was the first person to ever drop the carrier, it still had the tape attached in the front

I authenticated the date code on the spare to be sure.

I was VERY fortunate and found 3 other NOS 72' dated tires. I used them to make a "road" set for judging.

If ever there was a case, definitive proof, that these tires were on the car when they left the GM showroom, this is one....

[Harmon C.]

Re: Starter Restoration Question ....

I am pretty sure the TIM & JG mentions Uniroyals -- I know it did at one time and I think it is still there.

It's still their unverified so more research could be needed.
Lyle