3 part question on a C-2 ?

[Tom S.]

1. Is it correct the cars in Georgia that were built prior to 1985 have no titles?
2. How many points would be deducted for a car with add on air?
3. Does the add on air deduct from the value of a c-2 coupe?
Thanks in advance for the help! Tom

[Ken A.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

1. Is it correct the cars in Georgia that were built prior to 1985 have no titles? No, you can request a GA title if you have the original.
2. How many points would be deducted for a car with add on air? Factory-0, Aftermarket 2nd or 3rd flight
3. Does the add on air deduct from the value of a c-2 coupe? Factory + value, Aftermarket-depends on the buyer, but for me yes.
Thanks in advance for the help! Tom

Tom, see above.

[Joel F.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Tom,

I disagree with Ken to the extent that Classic Air or some other after market A/C affects Flight scoring.

I have limited judging experience, but the way I understand it is that points are not deducted for the presence of the A/C, but rather for any deviations from typical factory configuration that the presence of A/C causes. So for example, if you have to drill a hole in your firewall, that would be a deviation and cost a couple points. If you need to drill holes to install some switches, vents, etc. there will be deductions. All said, I have been told it is around 40 points for most after market installations. I am sure someone like Gerald Fuccilo who has a Top Flight and non-standard A/C (I think anyway) can tell us exactly what it cost him in terms of points.

I'd go for it if it will help you enjoy the car.

Joel

[Gerard F.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Ken,

I'm going to disagree with you on Tom's questions 2 and 3 as I have an add-on Vintage Air system on my Top Flight 67. The point deduct at Flight Judging for this aftermarket system, I found was less than a percentage point.

I realize that I could never go for PV with the system on the car, but if I chose to, the system could be taken off and the car returned to the original factory configuration. I put the system on and saved all the original parts. There are no real permanent modifications.

However, if you try to put factory air on a non-air car, I think you might have some counterfeit issues at judging, if it is detectable. If not and depending on how it is done, you might lose as many points as the add-on system. And the factory air is a lot less reversable.

As far as value, I agree that it depends upon the buyer. If the buyer were interested in originality, one might be committing fraud by selling the car with factory air. To some, it could even be considered similar to selling an original small block as a big block.

Regards,

[Mike M.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Yes, Joel. Your understanding is correct.
Deductions would be an accumulation of non-typical production issues.
You mentioned about 40 points. This is not a standard deduction and may vary depending upon possible differences of each individual installation, ie: pulleys, belts, whatever.
On the grand scheme of things this should not effect the grading of an otherwise "Stand-up" car.
HaND

[Gerard F.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Mike,

Can judges tell if factory air has been added to a non-air car?

What would be the status of the judging at Flight or PV, if factory air were detected as an add-on?

Regards,

[Mike M.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Hi Jerry, good question. Which has now become more complex.
Firstly, my earlier response was in regard to "Add-on" air.
Secondly, if a factory air installation into an originally non-A/C car is completed properly it may be undectable, but, unlikely.
So far, no harm-no foul.
Then a New game:
Later, someone forgets to tell the next buyer that it was not originally a factory air car, (we have a problem).
Or, worse yet, someone presenting it as a legitimate A/C car, has now created a totally new situation. I believe this is referred to as counterfeiting and if caught, becomes a felony in most states. (Probably all).
Geez, answering the first question question was like restoring my '62. I write a check for the completed work and the bills just keep coming and they keep get bigger and bigger.
HaND

[Joel F.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Yes, Joel. Your understanding is correct.
Deductions would be an accumulation of non-typical production issues.
You mentioned about 40 points. This is not a standard deduction and may vary depending upon possible differences of each individual installation, ie: pulleys, belts, whatever.

Thanks Mike,

Yes, I understand that it is not a standard deduct but is always helpful to clarify. The 40 pts was a SWAG based on what I thought might be affected.

Jerry,

Do you recall what your actual deduction came to? It is probably hard to say since it likely came off in bits and pieces across mech, interior, and exterior. I for one would be very interested in the results.

Thanks
Joel

[Gerard F.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Joel,

From my memory, I think it was closer to half a percentage point, in the range of 25-30 points. They hit you on the belts, pulleys, manifold and water pump bolts (which are changed), heater box and hoses, interior radio side panels.

Of course, it depends on the judge, and I think how the rest of the car looks. I think 40-50 points would be a conservative estimate for planning.

Also, you can't PV with the add-on A/C, I know I checked. You would need to take it off and put it back to original configuration, which is not a very big deal with Vintage Air, probably a day's work.

[Mike M.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Yes, Joel. I understand.
Likewise I may overanswer a question anticipating that other onlookers may be interested and would benefit from some added pertinent info.
Have a great day

[Joel F.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Thanks Mike!

[Tom S.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Thanks for all the input. Now how about the GA. title question? Anyone from Ga. know what the deal is? Do you only need a bill of sale? That is the way we used to do it before titles was a bill of sale and an old registration with serial# and so on. Thanks again Tom

[Ken A.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Thanks for all the input. Now how about the GA. title question? Anyone from Ga. know what the deal is? Do you only need a bill of sale? That is the way we used to do it before titles was a bill of sale and an old registration with serial# and so on. Thanks again Tom

Read first response.

[Joe R.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Mike,

Can judges tell if factory air has been added to a non-air car?

What would be the status of the judging at Flight or PV, if factory air were detected as an add-on?

Regards,

Hi Jerry:

I would think that a knowledgeable person could install factory air from a donor car into a car that did not have factory air, and get away with it. After all, when the cars were originally manufactured, the St. Louis workers simply installed the A/C parts per the AIM.

The question of what happens during judging when a non-original option is detected is a tricky one. The judging guide says that the detectable addition of an option that was not installed at the factory shall result in a full deduction. That's pretty high stakes.

As a practical matter, I think most NCRS judges are inclined to take a softer approach and simply deduct for whatever detectable aspects are not correct. It's often hard to argue that you *know* something wasn't installed at the factory, but you can certainly point out things that aren't correct.

For example, at a recent chapter event I looked at a power brake car that I am fairly certain was not equipped with power brakes at the factory. Instead of the factory nut plate inside the cowl vent, this car had big flat washers and some hardware store bolts securing the upper mounts for the booster.

Fortunately, I was judging interior on that car, so I didn't have to make the call on the power brakes. In fact, I do not know how the Mechanical team scored that item.

Had I been judging Mechanical, I would have told the owner that I was pretty sure the power brakes weren't original, but I would only have made a deduction for the incorrect attachment. If I said that I *know* the car did not have power brakes installed at the factory, the owner could argue that the factory nut plate might have "fallen off" at some point in the past and been replaced with hardware store items. There is no way to be absolutely certain about the history of a car if the owner claims ignorance.

For example, regarding factory A/C, there were two extra wiring clips riveted to the firewall on A/C cars and big block cars. So, if I saw a small block A/C car without those clips, I would be suspicious that maybe the A/C was not factory installed. This is the kind of detail that might get missed in a non-factory retrofit.

If I used this evidence to argue that the A/C was not factory installed, the owner could argue that St. Louis "forgot" to install the clips on that particular car. How could I prove otherwise? The only thing I can hang my hat on is that the missing clips are not correct per the judging standard.

So, I would tell the owner that I suspect the option is not factory installed, but I would only deduct for what is not correct about the installation.

I would be interested in hearing how some other people have approached this type of situation.

[Rick S.]

Re: 3 part question on a C-2 ?

Joe,
It sounds like you judge a Corvette on a calm and common sense approach to things. I like your style.

Rick