Older Western knock-offs

[Curt C.]

I just bought a 64 with a 30+ year old set of Western knock-offs on it and was wondering about the "status" of these wheels. They are not original Kelsey-Hayes wheels (obviously) but are at least not made in China and are more period correct. Any thoughts on this? Are they just older stuff as compared to newer stuff? I am thinking about going to steel wheels and hub caps. Thanks.

[Tom H.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

You are exactly right. The old Westerns are just that. Old Westerns, but as you mentioned, period correct.

Some of the more modern reproductions are considered more "accurrate" in thier details.

If the old wheels are nice, I'm sure you'll have no problem getting rid of them. Good luck with the 64 !!

[Duke W.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

I have a set of those that I bought 30 years ago. AFAIK they were manufactured from the original K-H tooling, and Western only changed the logo/number in the molds, so they are in detail dimension virtually indistinguishable from original K-H wheels. The only way to differentiate them is to look at the manufacurers logo/number on the backside.

Current "reproductions" are made from newer tooling and there are distinguishable differences in some dimensions including fin width.

The early Westerns will never equal the value of original K-H, but IMO a really nice set of Westerns is worth more than the current repros.

Duke

[Michael H.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

I have a set of those that I bought 30 years ago. AFAIK they were manufactured from the original K-H tooling, and Western only changed the logo/number in the molds, so they are in detail dimension virtually indistinguishable from original K-H wheels. The only way to differentiate them is to look at the manufacurers logo/number on the backside.

Current "reproductions" are made from newer tooling and there are distinguishable differences in some dimensions including fin width.

The early Westerns will never equal the value of original K-H, but IMO a really nice set of Westerns is worth more than the current repros.

Duke

The early Western wheels were a long way from accurate. Better than those from the 90's and especially the latest from China but still no cigar. I've had a few sets of those early wheels over the years and I think they're ugly.

I think the new wheels from AFC are going to hurt the market for all other reproduction KO wheels.

[Henry J.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

It is unclear to me how to distinguish between early and late Western KO's.

The set that I own say simply "Western Wheel" followed by a some alpha-numerics which I can't decipher. They do not say "Western Wheel K-H", which at one time, I thought indictated early wheels.

Is someone able to clarify this?

[Tom H.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

The early Western wheels were a long way from accurate. Better than those from the 90's and especially the latest from China but still no cigar. I've had a few sets of those early wheels over the years and I think they're ugly.

I think the new wheels from AFC are going to hurt the market for all other reproduction KO wheels.

My point, exactly. I think the old Westerns will still be easy to sell though.

[Wayne M.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

I just bought a 64 with a 30+ year old set of Western knock-offs on it and was wondering about the "status" of these wheels. They are not original Kelsey-Hayes wheels (obviously) but are at least not made in China and are more period correct. Any thoughts on this? . Thanks.

Curt -- They started re-popping KO's about 1977, when GM stock was exhausted. Many companies have had their try over the years. The early ones were by Western, an aftermarket affiliate of Kelsey Hayes. I took comparison shots of a set I have of '64s marked "Western Wheel Corp. K-H 306065 15X6"; the spinners have USA and RH and AU1 on each of the 3 ears of one spinner I checked. I suspect this set was made at least 20 years ago.

On the left is an original '66 KO (with a tire). Hard to get a caliper measurement with the rubber on, but seems like fin width is 0.255" deep on the fin, and tapering near the machined top surface to 0.210" wide. I'd never noticed this before. So the impression is that the fin is thinner, but in reality it's only near the fin edge.

The Western is about 0.255" from deep on the fin to the shiny surface (ie. not tapered).

More recently, as off-shore expertise became a cost factor, there have been some hideous copies produced (thick fins; shallow rim contour with thick lip, incorrect fin merge configuration nearest the rim and sometimes near the cone).

So I'd imagine you'd do well on an eBay sale as long as they look original. Your chances are better selling a 30-year old set, unless these recent $$$ examples are undetectable from originals -- appearance is king.

[Duke W.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

It is unclear to me how to distinguish between early and late Western KO's.

The set that I own say simply "Western Wheel" followed by a some alpha-numerics which I can't decipher. They do not say "Western Wheel K-H", which at one time, I thought indictated early wheels.

Is someone able to clarify this?

I believe the "Western K-H" is from later wheels. When Western first began making KO reproductions in the seventies they were an independent company.

Sometime later - eighties I recall - they were acquired by K-H so the logo was changed.

Duke

[Larry M.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

Information I have in my files indicates that Western Wheel was acquired by Kelsey-Hayes in 1984. Prior to being bought, Western Wheel was part of Rockwell International.

A piece of KH trivia from their website: In 1909 John Kelsey and John Herbert established K.H. Wheel Company. It was 1927 that Hayes Wheel and K.H. Wheel merge to form Kelsey-Hayes Wheel Corporation. The H in KH originally stood for Herbert and not for Hayes. I never knew that.

Larry

[Henry J.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

I have heard/read the story many times that the "original tooling" was used after Kelsey Hayes acquired Western Wheel (in 1984). If that is true, why aren't the (later) Western K-H wheels virtually identical to the original Kelsey Hayes KO's?

[Henry J.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

Wayne:

Your point about the tapering of fins on the original Kelsey Hayes KO is very enlightenting.

I measured the fins on one of my "early" Western Wheels and found them to be tapered as well. In fact, the dimensions are very similar to those you gave for your original K-H KO wheel.

[Donald T.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

I have heard/read the story many times that the "original tooling" was used after Kelsey Hayes acquired Western Wheel (in 1984). If that is true, why aren't the (later) Western K-H wheels virtually identical to the original Kelsey Hayes KO's?

Henry,

I have seen a few of the reproductions that appear to have been made with the original tooling. They are identical to the original KH in every respect, except for the removal of the manufacturer's mark. After the wheel was made, it appears that someone ground off the markings by hand with a die grinder. I have seen examples with just the KH ground off and others with the entire oval ground off. I have also seen examples where the oval is filled in. The company reproducing the wheels would not have had rights to use the KH. So I assume someone had to grind of the manufacturer's mark by hand after the wheel was made. I also assume that at some point later they just altered the mold so that only a blank oval was produced. These don't show up all that often compared to the Western Wheel, so I don't think all that many were produced.

[Duke W.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

I have heard/read the story many times that the "original tooling" was used after Kelsey Hayes acquired Western Wheel (in 1984). If that is true, why aren't the (later) Western K-H wheels virtually identical to the original Kelsey Hayes KO's?

No, the "original tooling" was used by Western when they bought the tooling from K-H in the seventies. This was a decade before Western was acquired by K-H. That's why the early Westerns are the closest in detail dimensions to the OE wheels made by K-H with the exception of the mfgs. name/part number on the backside.

At some point the tooling had to be replaced due to wear, etc., which could have introduced some slight changes in the mold designers interpretation of the original design drawings (if they existed), or changes to facilitate ease of casting.

Some later repros were probably "reverse engineered" i.e. drawings were made off a wheel and then tooling produced from those drawings, which probably introduced additional changes.

You will almost always find detailed differences in any repro parts (and many GM replacement parts), which are noticeable enough for experienced judges to spot them. Even OE parts can have slight differences if they came from multiple sources, and OE parts changed over time as tooling wore or was replaced.

The fin taper is probably what is referred to as "draft angle", which aids metal flow during casting and facilitates removing the solidified casting from the mold and removing the remaining sand. Often original design drawings do not have draft angle, so the mold designers add it to the mold drawings. If you give original design drawings to two mold designers and they independently design molds, there will likely be measureable differences in the finished parts. Mold design is an "art" and each mold designer/foundry will have slightly different interpretations of the original design drawings to facilitate casting.

Duke

[Henry J.]

Re: Older Western knock-offs

Thank you, Duke, for the excellent explanation.