Judging question on mufflers

[Brad M.]

I have a judging question regarding use of the '385 and '386 mufflers for a 71 which was equipped with 2.5 inch mufflers. Basically, I am interested in knowing the point deduction if I use mufflers with the part numbers stamped on them.

I see that judging manual calls for a 15% deduction for mufflers with embossed part numbers. And I think the deduction would apply to only the 8 possible points for originality on the mufflers right? If so the deduction would only be 1 or 2 points depending upon whether the 1.2 was rounded up or down.

Assuming that the exhaust pipes were cleanly welded to the muffler, is this 1 to 2 points the only difference between using mufflers with only the "W" and mufflers with the embossed part numbers? Or would the presence of the part numbers also likely subject one to deductions on the pipes as being service replacement or other similar related deductions?

[Bill C.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

Brad,

there is a set of W no pt# 385/386 mufflers on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200212763486&rd=1

[William C.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

Although the deduction for the part numbers is 1 or 2 points, there are advantages to NOS mufflers over reproductions in the following areas that judges should take into account, the location of the welds, the configuration of the pipes from the crossmember to the rear (most reproductions are not flattenend to the proper degree) and the base material (carbon steel vs aluminized or YIKES! Stainless) Also pay attention to the proper configuration of the clamps and original Exhaust tips. The exhaust system has a large number of potholes that one can fall into if not patient in researching the correct configuration of the original items.

[Dick W.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

Brad, apparently you are reading from an older judging manual. The newest manual does not specify deductions. The judging today is based on the matrix system. 20% of points available for configration, 20% for completeness, 20% for installation, 20% for date, and 20% for finish.

[Brad M.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

Bill - thanks I am basically questioning whether the points difference is worth spending that much cash. To me, if the point deduction is only 2 points, it is not worth messing with it.

William - I am definitely not evaluating using any reproduction. It is basically between GM with part number or GM with just the W. Pipes and clamps, etc are all GM.

Dick, yes my copy is third edition which I recently learned is outdated (I bought it 3 years ago). I am not sure that I fully follow what the point deduction would be if I used '385/'386 mufflers (with part numbers) with the '1829/'1830 pipes (I think those are #'s on pipes but do not remember for sure), but I think you may be saying that it would likely be more than two points.

[William C.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

The GM parts using clamps are even worse as none of the original pipes used clamps, and it you weld them, the welds will be in a non-factory (and easily seen) location. The reproductions are much better than the non-off road over the counter GM setup.

[Harmon C.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

Brad
In the the end you will put an exhaust system on your car that is not 100% correct. The judge will decide what is wrong just like you allready understand. Welds in the wrong place,part numbers that should not be there,and bends or other details not like original. You could pay lots of dollars for NOS parts and the deduction could be about the same as the person who puts on the kinda like original $600. system from a vendor.
I hear their is a new system coming out and we will see how close it comes to the few original systems left for judges to look at and compare.
As others have said on this board spend your restoration budget wisely as the exhaust system is harder to get correct than other parts.
Lyle

[John S.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

Brad
In the the end you will put an exhaust system on your car that is not 100% correct. The judge will decide what is wrong just like you allready understand. Welds in the wrong place,part numbers that should not be there,and bends or other details not like original. You could pay lots of dollars for NOS parts and the deduction could be about the same as the person who puts on the kinda like original $600. system from a vendor.
I hear their is a new system coming out and we will see how close it comes to the few original systems left for judges to look at and compare.
As others have said on this board spend your restoration budget wisely as the exhaust system is harder to get correct than other parts.
Lyle

Lyle,

Who is coming out with the new exhaust system and when will it be available?

Thanks,

John Sieczkos

[Harmon C.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

It's been talked about on this forum and Gardner is the brand. From the reports I have read their produucts are very good but I have not seen the product.

[Brad M.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

There are advantages and disadvantages of both the Gardner system and GM. The Gardner units will not have the 90 degree turn attached to the muffler (but as part of the pipe) and will be set up to make the weld close to base of muffler. The Garder mufflers will not have the W though. There are probably other advantages and disadvantages of both, but those are the two main differences that I know of.

I thought the issues that Gardner was having was more specific to the front pipes on Lt-1 rather than related to the muffler or the mid pipe, so I am not sure what the status is for a big block car.

[Robert C.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

Brad, If the ONLY difference is the part # embosed on the muffler, I would think 1 or 2 points or 20% of the originality points, deduct per muffler would be about right. The whole SYSTEM is a different story. There are many differences between the original exhaust system and the GM over the counter system. I would have to see it all to make an evaluation.
Bob Cook

[Brad M.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

Bob,

That is basically my original question, so thanks for addressing it. I was trying to evaluate the difference between W muffler and an embossed part number muffler, all other things being equal. I was partially thinking about this from a cost effectiveness standpoint - if it is only a couple points, I am not so interested in spending over $1,000 to get W only mufflers.

One of my mufflers actually is a W only, but it is the '386/right side, on which the W will face upward when installed (I think). So I have guessed that in judging, it will be assumed that both mufflers have the part number, since the '385/LH side has the part number.

I am aware of some variations in the pipes, etc. that you are referring to (but likely not all aspects). My front pipes have the swaged style transition from 2 inch to 2.5 inch, so hopefully I do not have issues on them. I am not aware so much of variations on the mid pipes, but mine have the wrinkles or folds (I am sure there is a technical term for this) in the bends.

[Bill C.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

One point I like to add ---

I had the real GM assembly line exhaust on my car when I bought it - sounded WAY NICE!
Then came the rot, rust and - then bye-bye exhaust system.

So I bought all the NOS GM pipes and W mufflers - sounds exactly the same.

The systems that come from aftermarket may equate to the same deductions - but - they will not and do not sound like GM Walker exhaust.

I would really like to hear what a full Gardener system running sounds like.

Those double walled and smooshed pipes have a tone note that no other system can produce; same for the mufflers.


:-)

[Mike G.]

Re: Judging question on mufflers

i would not pay that much money for those few points. you would be better off with a nice set of reproduction mufflers with the correct markings. you will get most of the points with that for a whole lot less money. you might lose a couple of points on originality but pick them back up on condition.