Why the Change?

[M W.]

Hi all,

I was reading through my new 63-64 Judging Guide last night and noticed that a revision has been made regarding a simple thing like the exhaust extension tips. Now these do not have the part numbers on them. Still have the seams but no numbers. During my last Top Flight Judging meet I was deducted points for not haing any seams or part numbers. Found a set of NOS extensions with the numbers and seams to install prior to a meet next month and now I am going to be deducted for having part numbers. What a racket. Anytime the NCRS folks change their minds on a item it's up to the owner to keep up with the motion or lose points. It's time for me to just say enough is enough. Who know's maybe next time they will change it back to my original way with no numbers or seams.

Agitated,
Craig

[Harry S.]

Re: Why the Change?

Craig, the stainless extensions that were installed at the time the car was built were of a very thin metal, there were seams and there was NO part number. As I recall this is true for all 63 to 67's.

The NOS over the counter extensions that were purchased from any Chevy dealer were of thin metal, there were seams and there WAS a part number.

From what I see the JG now reflects how the car was delivered by the dealer.

Harry

[M W.]

Re: Why the Change?

Harry,

I understand that and respect them for trying to make this hobby as authentic as possible but what's a fellow to do to keep up. Does the new changes invalidate the old Top Flights? It should. Oh well like I said before it's time to say enough is enough. For me that is.

Thanks again,
Craig

[Mike M.]

Re: Why the Change?

I wouldn't worry about the points lost because of exhaust tips. It should be 1 or 2 points. Which is not big deal out of 4500. At a chapter meet they missed that mine had no seams. They got me a the National for 2 points. Things change each time a new judging guide comes out. It would put me in the poor house if I decided to change parts to keep up with things. I think chasing points has made a lot of Ebay sellers very happy geting $100.00 for things like a air cleaner wing nut, because the buyer thinks he needs it for his Top Flight. Prices are way out of hand for parts that should only be worth a few bucks based on there point value and original value.

[Eric J.]

Re: Why the Change?

Craig, I feel your pain. I have always tried to do my own research on a part before I make a change. If you were to restore a Corvette of any year to the TIM&JG specification I guarantee it would different then what rolled out the door at Flint/St Louis/BG. The manuals are living documents, especially the C1s and C2s. Back in the day getting our 53 and 54 Flight Judged was an easier job, people 20 years ago knew a lot more then what the book said. Today It would be hard to Top Flight my 54 or 53 if the Judges knew nothing about them except for what was written in the TIM&JG. (I would let Roy B. judge them though). That being said It is the best we have and the TIM&JG process evolves so that we can get closer to the truth.

Sounds to me like you are now closer with your NOS tips since they are thin and have seams. Should be easy to remove the part numbers. If you want to leave them on with 4500 points you have some slop to get a TF 270pts or 135pts for a 97pt TF. I would think Part numbers left on would only be a couple of points.

[Mike E.]

Re: Why the Change?

Craig,
I understand your frustration--I remember back in 1977 we had a member quit the NCRS because he had been told that his 62 horn relay was to have a cad-plated top (so he changed it to that) and then lost points because it was cad-plated at the next meet. Changing anything in the manual gives the opportunity for anyone who is trying to improve their car for judging to be frustrated if they spent time/energy/money to align the car with the old manual.
The only other option is to never improve the judging manual. You read the posts a while back when many were castigating the 63-64 team leader because of their perception that he was unwilling to update the manual. What exactly is he/are we to do? This is not at all a criticism of you--it's just an attempt to help you see that there are two sides to every situation.
Regards,
Mike

[Louis T.]

Re: Why the Change?

Craig,

Don't be discouraged. If you read enough of these posts and talk to experienced folks, among other things, they'll tell you:

(a) If you believe your car is original, i.e., as it left the factory, then don't change it to reflect the current judging manual - the manual could be wrong or omit some little-seen variation, and may be revised down the road. This is, of course, a very big "if" as unless you are the original owner and know for a fact that the dealer made no "adjustments" to the car prior to delivery or during subsequent dealer services (warranty repairs and damages sustained and repaired while under the dealer's possession - and unbeknownst to you - could have resulted in over-the-counter parts being substituted for production pieces). Clearly if the car has been through different owners all bets are off, and previous Flight Judging scoring, especially prior to your ownership mean little as well, as standards change based on available knowledge, and the knowledge of the judges present at the time, and parts could have been subsequently replaced.





Save the wave!

Louis

[Roy B.]

Re: Why the Change?

Craig, I feel your pain. I have always tried to do my own research on a part before I make a change. If you were to restore a Corvette of any year to the TIM&JG specification I guarantee it would different then what rolled out the door at Flint/St Louis/BG. The manuals are living documents, especially the C1s and C2s. Back in the day getting our 53 and 54 Flight Judged was an easier job, people 20 years ago knew a lot more then what the book said. Today It would be hard to Top Flight my 54 or 53 if the Judges knew nothing about them except for what was written in the TIM&JG. (I would let Roy B. judge them though). That being said It is the best we have and the TIM&JG process evolves so that we can get closer to the truth.

Sounds to me like you are now closer with your NOS tips since they are thin and have seams. Should be easy to remove the part numbers. If you want to leave them on with 4500 points you have some slop to get a TF 270pts or 135pts for a 97pt TF. I would think Part numbers left on would only be a couple of points.

Eric! Thanks ! I think for mentioning me! Starting in 1975 I've judged many 53-57 Corvettes for NCRS and helped SACC members realize what is original for their C1's with the help of MANY other friends input to get people ready for NCRS judging .
Keep in mind that I like people that drive their Corvette so I'm not a stickler about some grease , part wear,dust and a couple of paint chips .When I know a part in the JM is wrong I don't take points off and if I see something wrong not mentioned in the JM I tell the owner so he or/ she can start looking for the right part. So you see I'm not the best judge you wont to be judging your Corvette going for Duntov .You must conform to the JM.
Why!! Because there is no way you'll ever see any Corvette on the show field that looks the way it came out of the factory .
Lets get real!!
So what have we got ? Well !No way can some one restore a Corvette making it look like it just rolled out of the factory , it's human nature to over restore a Corvette or any car. Trailer queens as there called are the ex-stream example ( no way GM made a Corvette that looked that good) but even me not restoring my 55 as a trailer queen ,even if I tried / no way I can make it look factory new. Then on top of that most parts don't have any documentation as a plied to design or date changes.
People that have been around Corvettes for "many" years that Owen their Corvette and know 95% about it gathering info still don't know what is right or wrong about many things.
I find it interesting watching new member judges going over a Corvette, compared to old farts judging.
The old farts can go through a Corvette in less then half the time new ones do>Well my remarks will get me in trouble again , so be it! that's my 2 cents

[Eric J.]

Re: Why the Change?

Roy, I appreciate your style of judgng. Most regional and up judges have the ability to do that. Although there aren't many judges left in the lower meets (Chapter specifically) with a lot of 53-55 experience. Had my 53 Mechanically judged by John Amgwert back in 93. I don't think he even looked in the TIM&JG. Gave me a lot of advice and fixed a lot of minor things not mentioned in the TIM&JG. Eric