"easy" primer-paint questions

[Greg L.]

In 69, what was the color of the primer if Cortez Silver was the body color? I'm thinking it was red-oxide but I seem to remember reading some place that for silver and other light colors that a grey primer was used...

What would be the recommended color of primer to use today under Cortez Silver?

Does silver cover very well or not so much?

Thanks.

[Dick W.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

Greg, I would use a primer that was close in color, in your case gray, under the silver. Silver is not the best hiding color there is, has a lot of clear in the formula.

[Chuck S.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

In 69, what was the color of the primer if Cortez Silver was the body color? I'm thinking it was red-oxide but I seem to remember reading some place that for silver and other light colors that a grey primer was used...

What would be the recommended color of primer to use today under Cortez Silver?

Does silver cover very well or not so much?...

I understand the new judging guides have the primer colors used...see what the 68-69 TIM&JG says. For 70, the TIM&JG says it was red oxide primer, then a gray sealer coat; top coat color apparently didn't matter.

Gray is a common color for modern primers, and depending on the shade, will be close to optimum for coverage by silver. However, the better approach would be to find a primer, and sealer, that is compatible with the top coat, and then find out the colors. Get the product sheet for the top coat, then work backwards through the compatible products it can be applied over.

I've been thinking I should give you a recommended reference to study for learning how to paint metallic silver: Advanced Custom Painting Techniques by Jon Kosmoski. Don't pay any attention to the fact that it's mostly about custom paint jobs. This book has the basics you need up front, and if you learn to paint candies like the book, silver will be easy.

I don't know what kind of gun you plan to invest in, but Sata and maybe others have instructional videos on setting up and using the gun...you don't become an expert by "watching" them, but it is the required starting point.

[Greg L.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

Thanks guys....grey primer it is then.

Chuck, I may have been thinking about the sealer being grey instead of an actual grey primer. I'm finally getting my ducks in a row and the "sealer" which will be PPG's DPLF is compatible with all topcoats....yes even lacquer! The gun I plan on getting is a Devilbiss GFG-670 Plus. It's supposed to be the "cat's behind" for many reasons namely it's ability to spray a uniform coat of metalic paint, it's a compliant gun and doesn't require a huge CFM...9-11 I think.

I'll look into that book that you mentioned too.

[Chuck S.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

...I'm finally getting my ducks in a row and the "sealer" which will be PPG's DPLF is compatible with all topcoats....yes even lacquer!...

Yeah, I knew that, but I thought you were going "Old School"...In fact, I think I may have "cast" that DPLF primer/sealer "pearl" before, but it only makes sense when you're using a surfacer.

I presume by putting the parentheses around "sealer", you mean you are going to apply PPG acrylic lacquer directly over DPLF epoxy primer as the first primer coat. For use as a primer the mix ratio is 2 DPLF : 1 DP401LF. When used a sealer, you reduce DPLF; mix ratio is 2 DPLF : 1 DP401LF : 0.5 DT870 (as appropriate for temperature). But...a "sealer" coat will not be required if you already have DPLF primer.

If you're contemplating a reduced sealer coat as a "second coat", it won't hurt anything except your wallet. I not sure why they recommend reducing DPLF as a sealer unless it's to insure that the epoxy flows out well for a smooth substrate. If you're simply applying it over DPLF primer, then every bit of roughness in the primer will show right through anyway. My experience is that you won't have any roughness if you have good spray technique. I have found, however, DPLF seems to set up a little faster and lock in "sins" quicker than the old DP, which was virtually foolproof...maybe my reducer was a little too "fast" for the temperature.

DPLF is not really suitable for sanding and is NOT a sanding primer...the only time you should be forced to sand DPLF is when you let it cure too long before top coating. In that case, they recommend you recoat with DPLF (an expensive proposition to be avoided at all costs. ) to take advantage of the crosslinking chemical bond. For DPLF, they say to let it cure NO LONGER than a week, but I prefer to top coat it within 24 hours just like the old DP...the minimum time to top coat is at least 60-90 minutes.

If you're planning to use DPLF, then you probably know that DP50LF is the gray epoxy primer...it's a medium gray rather than a light gray which would be ideal for the silver. They also have DP48LF which is white, but DPLF can not be tinted for those thinking along those lines.

DP401LF catalyst requires a 30 minute induction period with stirring befoe application. I personally like to standardize on one catalyst...DP402LF is more convenient (no waiting), but I've been there, done that. You end up with partial cans of both catalysts, and not enough of either. Catalysts are not cheap and these two catalysts can not be mixed. There are also some applications for which DP402LF can not be used such as flexible parts...this may not be relevant to you if you only paint this one car.

[Dick W.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

DP is used as a sealer over primer surfacers. There is a distinct difference between primer and primer surfacer. Used as a primer DP is applied over bare material as a base material that will chemically adhere to the body and as a base under a primer surfacer or body filler. It's adhesion properties and anti corrosion properties are close to the best available to the automotive market.

Primer surfacer is a high solids material used to fill minor imperfections in the body. It is the material that you sand and block to level out the surfaces.

Once you sand and block to your little pea pickin' hearts desire, and immediately before you apply your color coats, you seal the primer/surfacer to minimize sand scratch swelling and the posibility of solvents penetrating your body work and causing it to swell and show thru the color

[Chuck S.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

Dickie, surely you're not suggesting that Gregster use primer surfacer on his Corvette!!?? After all, if he's going to block out all those waves and imperfections, what's the point of using lacquer?

[Dick W.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

But if he does not, it has a very good chance of all the repair work, if any, showing through his color coat. You cannot ever restore a car's body to original. Lotsa things you can make look original, but the body ain't one of them.

[Greg L.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

I say "sealer" because I know that it's primary use is as an epoxy primer but can also be used as a sealer if it is thinned more than you would if you were using it as a primer.

I've been asking a lot of questions on the autobodystore forum and I have to say that they are all quite helpfull in helping me with my "problem". What I have learned is that I can safely carry on from where I am with the lacquer primer that I have on the car especially if I just spray on a lacquer topcoat. However, lacquer lays down nicer, doesn't dull as easy and is generally better if it is sprayed over an epoxy primer or sealer. I have also been toying with the idea of using a single stage urethane IF I can find one of the proper formula including the correct flake size. Either way I think it would be a better job if it had a 2k sealer over the lacquer primer and under the topcoat even if I do stay with a lacquer topcoat.

PPG's DPLF is aparently the only 2k primer/sealer that can be sprayed over a lacquer substrate so that is the ONLY reason why I chose it. The guys at the autobodystore forum don't normally recommend using ANY 2k products over lacquer primers but have suggested a technique for me to use that will give satisfactory results.

I know it's not required but would you guys recommend me spraying on the DPLF as a sealer if I were still going to use a lacquer topcoat or are the benefits not really worth the extra time and money?

[Chuck S.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

...What I have learned is that I can safely carry on from where I am with the lacquer primer that I have on the car especially if I just spray on a lacquer topcoat. However, lacquer lays down nicer, doesn't dull as easy and is generally better if it is sprayed over an epoxy primer or sealer...

PPG's DPLF is aparently the only 2k primer/sealer that can be sprayed over a lacquer substrate so that is the ONLY reason why I chose it. The guys at the autobodystore forum don't normally recommend using ANY 2k products over lacquer primers but have suggested a technique for me to use that will give satisfactory results.

I know it's not required but would you guys recommend me spraying on the DPLF as a sealer if I were still going to use a lacquer topcoat or are the benefits not really worth the extra time and money?...

Ahhh, uhmmm...Gregster, I believe we're back to where this discussion started months ago.

Truthfully, I can't give you any advice using mixed systems, and I have no experience with what you're proposing.

Those old guys over on the AutoBodyStore forums have probably done what you want to do, and tried everything else as well. They've helped me out before, and they'll get you through this.

[Dick W.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

Greg, you have the same problems with lacquer as you do with modern paints. Mixing formulas. You cannot get the mixing colors that were used in the original formulas. What you get today is an offset color, ie as close as possible color. Lacquer primer under a modern top coat is like gold plating peanut butter. Modern primer surfacers are light years ahead of the best lacquer primer ever made.

[Greg L.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

Ahhh, uhmmm...Gregster, I believe we're back to where this discussion started months ago.

Truthfully, I can't give you any advice using mixed systems, and I have no experience with what you're proposing.

Those old guys over on the AutoBodyStore forums have probably done what you want to do, and tried everything else as well. They've helped me out before, and they'll get you through this.

Yes I see that it's going that way and that wasn't my intent. The guys at the autobodystore forum have me going in the right direction including a "way out" if I decide to use something other than lacquer for a topcoat.

I now know all about the short comings of lacquer as well as the good things about it too. What I didn't ask over there though was what the original color primer or sealer was because I was pretty sure that I'd get a more accurate answer here.

I also asked them this same question..."I know it's not required but would you guys recommend me spraying on the DPLF as a sealer if I were still going to use a lacquer topcoat or are the benefits not really worth the extra time and money? I'm currious to see what you guys think about this. I know it will still have a lacquer primer under it all but will the actual lacquer topcoat be better(less buffing, less dulling over time, less chance to craze, etc) if it's sprayed over a 2k sealer or will it be the same as if it were sprayed directly over lacquer primer?

If you want to check out my postings over there just do a search under lintmann

Thanks

[Chuck S.]

Re: "easy" primer-paint questions

...If you want to check out my postings over there just do a search under lintmann...

Are you kidding?...Not even as a "paid consultant".

See previous post...there's nothing more I can add to help you. My knowledge and experience is narrowly focused on PPG single stage acrylic urethane and compatible products as a system. Once you start entertaining "what if" scenarios that mix systems, I have no basis for comment.

What I can tell you is, when it comes to knowing what will "work"...AS A SYSTEM...and give you good, long term durability, you are better off to go with what the people that make these products recommend.

When you figure that the materials alone for painting a car may cost $2000 or more, not even mentioning seemingly endless hours of personal sanding and cleaning drudgery, I want MUCH better odds of success (virtually 100% if impossible) than Las Vegas is allowing. I only want to do it once, and I want it to be a "home run". When it comes to "lab work experimentation", I leave that to the manufacturers and gamblers.