AeroShell Aviation oil

[Verle R.]

Does anyone have access to the Zinc content of AeroShell Aviation oil?

It follows US Mil Spec for "Std. Engine Aviation Oil" and will continue to be produced.

Could this be another source of "high zinc content oil" for our old cars?

Verle

[Rich G.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

I would think the shell web site might have that. I have some at the airport, but I don't think it says on the bottle. I will check. Also, in an aviation paper that I get bi-weekly there is a column on oils written by a guy from shell. (GAN News and Flyer). When I get the next issue, I'll get his e-mail. I don't save the issues, so I'll have to wait.

I always thought running Ashless Dispersant oil in car motors was bad, only I don't know why I thought that. Maybe it's because it costs twice as much.

Rich 38594

[Rich G.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

I would think the shell web site might have that. I have some at the airport, but I don't think it says on the bottle. I will check. Also, in an aviation paper that I get bi-weekly there is a column on oils written by a guy from shell. (GAN News and Flyer). When I get the next issue, I'll get his e-mail. I don't save the issues, so I'll have to wait.

I always thought running Ashless Dispersant oil in car motors was bad, only I don't know why I thought that. Maybe it's because it costs twice as much.

Rich 38594

[Clem Z.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

i do not know what is in av oil now but back in the 60-70 we were told by GM to use av oil because it was ashless and would help prevent piston burning caused by deposits get on top of the pistons in race engines. i would guess in av oil does not contain zinc and phosphorus

[Clem Z.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

i do not know what is in av oil now but back in the 60-70 we were told by GM to use av oil because it was ashless and would help prevent piston burning caused by deposits get on top of the pistons in race engines. i would guess in av oil does not contain zinc and phosphorus

[Duke W.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

I have not thoroughly researched small aircraft piston engine lubricating oils, but it's the additives in motor oils that create ash, so "ashless" implies no additives or just a minimum package - basically "non-detergent" oil.

Chevrolet recommended ashless oil for racing engines back in the seventies because it left fewer combustion chamber deposits that might lead to detonation on very high compression, loose engines that passed a lot of oil into the combustion chambers. I don't think they recommend non-detergent oils for the C-6R or R07 engines, today.

I will remind all that racing engines are entirely different animals than road engines. Racing engines get torn down for inspection and replacement of parts at period intervals - as often as every race, so they don't need oils with a lot of detergent/dispersant/anti-corrosion additives and can probably get away with little or no anti-wear additive because sliding surface relative velocities are always high.

The worst cast for cam lobe wear is IDLE SPEED!!!

That's why the cam break-in process requires keeping the engine well above idle speed for the first few minutes of engine operation. At idle speed, the low relative velocity between lobe and lifter may not generate enough hydrodynamic pressure to prevent metal to metal contact, especially with the typical aftermarket gorilla valve springs that "engine builders" install even though the engine may never see 6000 revs.

A road engine should last at least 150K miles, even if it take decades to accumulate that much, so fluids must be chosen with that service in mind, not just one race.

Current small aircraft piston engines and most everything associated with them have not changed since the 1940s because what worked then works now, and the cost of certifying new engines and associated products is mind-numbing while industry profits are razor-thin. Small aircraft piston engines run at low mean piston speeds and low valvetrain characteristic speeds. They have oil coolers and the internal parts are lightly loaded, so they are happy with 1940s oil technology.

The 0.12% maximum phosphorous content allowed in CJ-4 oils yields about the same ZDDP content as the dual rated oils that carried both the then current C and S service category ratings prior to the phosphorous limitation in S-rated oils.

CJ-4 has an ideal additive package for vintage engines.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

I have not thoroughly researched small aircraft piston engine lubricating oils, but it's the additives in motor oils that create ash, so "ashless" implies no additives or just a minimum package - basically "non-detergent" oil.

Chevrolet recommended ashless oil for racing engines back in the seventies because it left fewer combustion chamber deposits that might lead to detonation on very high compression, loose engines that passed a lot of oil into the combustion chambers. I don't think they recommend non-detergent oils for the C-6R or R07 engines, today.

I will remind all that racing engines are entirely different animals than road engines. Racing engines get torn down for inspection and replacement of parts at period intervals - as often as every race, so they don't need oils with a lot of detergent/dispersant/anti-corrosion additives and can probably get away with little or no anti-wear additive because sliding surface relative velocities are always high.

The worst cast for cam lobe wear is IDLE SPEED!!!

That's why the cam break-in process requires keeping the engine well above idle speed for the first few minutes of engine operation. At idle speed, the low relative velocity between lobe and lifter may not generate enough hydrodynamic pressure to prevent metal to metal contact, especially with the typical aftermarket gorilla valve springs that "engine builders" install even though the engine may never see 6000 revs.

A road engine should last at least 150K miles, even if it take decades to accumulate that much, so fluids must be chosen with that service in mind, not just one race.

Current small aircraft piston engines and most everything associated with them have not changed since the 1940s because what worked then works now, and the cost of certifying new engines and associated products is mind-numbing while industry profits are razor-thin. Small aircraft piston engines run at low mean piston speeds and low valvetrain characteristic speeds. They have oil coolers and the internal parts are lightly loaded, so they are happy with 1940s oil technology.

The 0.12% maximum phosphorous content allowed in CJ-4 oils yields about the same ZDDP content as the dual rated oils that carried both the then current C and S service category ratings prior to the phosphorous limitation in S-rated oils.

CJ-4 has an ideal additive package for vintage engines.

Duke

[Dick W.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

I know at least one well known engine builder, even though he has a major sponsorship from a major motor oil company, uses brand X synthetic. Less bearing wear and one-two more horsepower.

[Dick W.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

I know at least one well known engine builder, even though he has a major sponsorship from a major motor oil company, uses brand X synthetic. Less bearing wear and one-two more horsepower.

[Duke W.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

I assume you're talking about racing engines. Bearing wear is rarely an issue on road engines manufactured after the mid-fifties when full flow oil filters became an industry standard. That was also about the time that GM began using Morraine 400 aluminum bearings, which have very high fatigue life, but poor embedability, so they need clean oil.

Today's "tri-metal" replacement bearings do not have as good fatigue life as the M400 bearings. The M400 bearings in my '63 340 HP looked near new when I tore it down at 115K miles. The Duntov cam was within OE spec, too.

The only wear in the engine was at the top of the cylinder walls - .005" in two of them and .003" in the other six.

A zillion cold starts, some in 20-below weather does that.

A racing engine can be tough on bearings because of the huge loads they have to carry at extremely high revs. Bearing loads increase with the SQUARE of speed, and a bearing in a racing engine can be loaded to the point where bearing fatigue life is very short. Assuming this "engine builder" is using current typical trimetal bearings, he would have better bearing life with the old M400 bearings regardless of the type of oil.

Again, what applies to a racing engine usually has little or no relevance to road engines.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

I assume you're talking about racing engines. Bearing wear is rarely an issue on road engines manufactured after the mid-fifties when full flow oil filters became an industry standard. That was also about the time that GM began using Morraine 400 aluminum bearings, which have very high fatigue life, but poor embedability, so they need clean oil.

Today's "tri-metal" replacement bearings do not have as good fatigue life as the M400 bearings. The M400 bearings in my '63 340 HP looked near new when I tore it down at 115K miles. The Duntov cam was within OE spec, too.

The only wear in the engine was at the top of the cylinder walls - .005" in two of them and .003" in the other six.

A zillion cold starts, some in 20-below weather does that.

A racing engine can be tough on bearings because of the huge loads they have to carry at extremely high revs. Bearing loads increase with the SQUARE of speed, and a bearing in a racing engine can be loaded to the point where bearing fatigue life is very short. Assuming this "engine builder" is using current typical trimetal bearings, he would have better bearing life with the old M400 bearings regardless of the type of oil.

Again, what applies to a racing engine usually has little or no relevance to road engines.

Duke

[John D.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

Verle, I assume you saw Joe Lucia's post or two on the new addition of GM's EOS. GM 88862586. I have so many note-o grams around this pc and desk its like a maze. I try and buy aviation type products for use in my shop. I use the Permatex Aviation #3H gasket sealant big time. It's history in CA though or so I heard.
And my favorite fuel for the seldom used FI cars is the 100 low lead Av gas. I know several of you don't like it but all I can say is you'll have that.
Now Aviation oil. hmmm. Don't forget about the lawn equipment and cycle shops oil. It has a lot of zinc in it.
Or you can do like I did and clean off the shelves of the local Walmarts that still had the good stuff. Now all they have is the thick stuff 15-40 CJ-4 crap. Here today and gone tomorrow. Like everything else.
Meanwhile we sure could use some of Al Gores weather warmer stuff in the SW corner of PA. Either that or 0-5 oil. I gots the GMC running outside and the baby was making all kind of strange noises as it's one big ice cube. 4 degreees and that doesn't count the windshield factor. JD

[John D.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

Verle, I assume you saw Joe Lucia's post or two on the new addition of GM's EOS. GM 88862586. I have so many note-o grams around this pc and desk its like a maze. I try and buy aviation type products for use in my shop. I use the Permatex Aviation #3H gasket sealant big time. It's history in CA though or so I heard.
And my favorite fuel for the seldom used FI cars is the 100 low lead Av gas. I know several of you don't like it but all I can say is you'll have that.
Now Aviation oil. hmmm. Don't forget about the lawn equipment and cycle shops oil. It has a lot of zinc in it.
Or you can do like I did and clean off the shelves of the local Walmarts that still had the good stuff. Now all they have is the thick stuff 15-40 CJ-4 crap. Here today and gone tomorrow. Like everything else.
Meanwhile we sure could use some of Al Gores weather warmer stuff in the SW corner of PA. Either that or 0-5 oil. I gots the GMC running outside and the baby was making all kind of strange noises as it's one big ice cube. 4 degreees and that doesn't count the windshield factor. JD

[Verle R.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

John,

I did see Joe's post on EOS. I use that for an engine build/startup. I use diesel oil for normal running.

With this post I was hoping to learn about standard aviation oil since it will probably be around for a long time. I live in an airport community on a taxiway so aviation oil is easily available. If is has the right additives I would consider using it.

You should move south to warmer weather, like Brownsville, Tx. It is usually warm there.

Verle

[Verle R.]

Re: AeroShell Aviation oil

John,

I did see Joe's post on EOS. I use that for an engine build/startup. I use diesel oil for normal running.

With this post I was hoping to learn about standard aviation oil since it will probably be around for a long time. I live in an airport community on a taxiway so aviation oil is easily available. If is has the right additives I would consider using it.

You should move south to warmer weather, like Brownsville, Tx. It is usually warm there.

Verle