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Drain Back From Head to Crankcase

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  • William G.
    Very Frequent User
    • December 1, 1988
    • 140

    Drain Back From Head to Crankcase

    Greetings to All:

    I'm just a little reluctant to address this issue. I've researched the archives and learned a lot about high volume oil pumps (I'll assume here that high pressure pumps will also likely kick out additional oil volume, but my situation is a high volume Melling pump), some from this forum and elsewhere.

    However, I'm still learning and hence I'll dive in with a question, which may explain, as I'm still learning, my reluctance to pose this issue on the forum. It is certainly far from uncommon for knowledgeable people to question whether a high volume Melling pump would flood the area atop the head with sufficient oil to enter the combustion chamber via the stem guide. I'm not taking sides and I tend to agree with those on this forum who state that more than likely excess oil put out from a high volume pump will flood the head and cause oil to be drawn/sucked down the intake guide (some even through the exhaust guide and burned on the valve head underside?).

    But here's my question. I'm in possession of two 1966 blocks, one cast in October 1965 and the other in April of 1966, although I'm doubtful if the casting information as noted is relevant. Both these engines have the heads attached and hence a little of what I'm asking is perhaps a mite on the conjecture side. I have looked at numerous photos on the internet of small blocks for sale and assume that the 1966 blocks were (almost had to be) cast the same. In particular, I cannot see the area in question on the two 1966 blocks I have. On the internet photos I've seen, in the area right below (and in line with the head gasket hole) the drilled drain hole in each corner of the head is a, as cast, depression area in the block which would serve as a drainageway for the oil to flow into and down the lifter valley. However, on my blocks when I peer down the drilled hole in the head all I see at the bottom is a machined block deck surface. This would certainly severely restrict flow into the lifter valley. [I've tested these engines by pooling oil at the rear end of the head and in fact it does drain down but very slowly and instead easily cause oil to drip/flow on the exhaust manifold and down onto the floor]. Although shadows cast down the drilled passage in the head do make it somewhat difficult to see, there is apparently a SMALL opening which does lead into the as cast "trough" in the block.

    Here's my question, and I'm thinking it is rather obvious: if my blocks are not REALLY atypical this would seem to guarantee that a high volume pump would undoubtedly cause excess oil to be backed up atop the heads and lead to significant oil consumption. No? I fail to see how there could be any doubt of this! And yet recently I've seen for sale on the internet VERY few standard volume pumps, in admittedly my somewhat limited searches all I can find are high volume pumps, with few exceptions. Almost without saying, my 1966 327 has a M-55HV pump. At 83 years of age I'm not real keen on crawling under the car to replace it with a standard volume pump but my "research" tends to make this a no-brainer. However many "Chevrolet people" would question the need for this, as noted earlier.

    I'd certainly like to put this issue to rest!
  • Mark F.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • July 31, 1998
    • 1583

    #2
    Hi William,

    Duke Williams and a few others who post here are probably the guys who can answer your questions the best, but here are some links below (which you may have already explored ?) on Hi Volume and Hi pressure oil pumps.

    I know nothing about these pumps, but are you burning oil ?
    How often are you having to top off ? (of course this depends on how often; how many miles; and how hard you're driving it).
    and if you're not a "hi-performance type" driver, just out of curiosity, do you know why the OEM pump was replaced ?

    https://help.summitracing.com/knowle...SR-04825/en-us

    https://garage.grumpysperformance.co...l-pumps.15902/

    thx,
    Mark

    Comment

    • Owen L.
      Very Frequent User
      • September 30, 1991
      • 891

      #3
      My wondering is that no matter regular volume or high volume pump, the pushrods and lifters can only flow volume X. How would excessive oil end up in the head?

      Comment

      • Jim L.
        Extremely Frequent Poster
        • September 30, 1979
        • 1817

        #4
        I don't know what's causing your drainback issues but it is NOT the high volume pump. In and of itself, a high volume pump does NOT push more oil thru the engine.

        Only pressure increases will cause an increase in oil flow. Read that again. Only pressure increases will cause an increase in oil flow.

        "Sure, Jim, but where does all that extra oil being pumped by a HV pump go????"

        It never leaves the oil pan. It just circulates into the HV pump and out the pressure relief port and back into the pan.

        And note this..... even if your oil pump operates with a high pressure relief spring and your pressure is, say, 60psi instead of 40psi, the increase in oil flow isn't 50%, like you would think. The increase in flow is proportional to the square root of the pressure increase. So that 50% increase in pressure results in only a 22.5% increase in flow.

        So, with that settled, to the OP, how about posting some pictures of what you are seeing that is causing your drainback issues?

        Comment

        • William G.
          Very Frequent User
          • December 1, 1988
          • 140

          #5
          Thanks to the responses from Mark, Owen, and Jim. Thought provoking at the least. I've seen entries on this forum which do suggest that a high volume pump will tend to overload the drain-back capabilities of the passage through the head into the lifter valley. However, Jim and Owen's replies do make a lot of sense. Fluid dynamics is an area where I'm not very well versed............I imagine that is quite an understatement! Jim's comments certainly do cause me to re-think fluid dynamics. That is the high volume will likely increase pressure but the pressure relief valve will dial that back and the end result will merely be oil circulating through the pick-up and pump and then back to the sump. Not especially useful given that the result is heating of the oil. Owen's reply also makes sense in that there would need to be an increase in pressure for there to be additional flow through the restrictions in the valve train. This all makes my decision to use the HV pump pretty dumb. Oh, my oil pressure is 30 psi idle (750-800 rpm) and 45 psi at anything above 2000 rpm.......right on spec.

          Oil burning is my concern. On the order of 250-300 miles to a quart. One suggestion from a cousin was to insure that oil was not being sucked from lifter valley area into the intake ports. So I re-gasketed the intake to the heads in an attempt to have the intake set a little lower at front and rear of block. As an aside, I've also read where Duke reminded us that a suction leak here would tend to lean out the mixture. My Holley idle mixture screws are one to 1-1/2 turns out which could tend to suggest no intake vacuum leaks. The effort to re-gasket the intake manifold resulted in roughly a 50-60 percent improvement in oil usage...............say up approximately to 450 miles per quart. [I'd prefer a quart to 700-800 miles. I've read some guys insist on 1100-1200 miles but about 25 years ago a GM trained mechanic told me that, back in the days, the factory would not consider warranty claims unless it could be shown that oil consumption was less than 500 miles per quart]. I should add that a compression check showed figures of 145 to 155 psi.......not great but not really suggestive of ring issues. I should add that when I pulled the intake the ports in the heads were showing oil.

          One additional question related to all the above is what level of oil consumption, assuming it is not the rings, is going to result in a performance problem due to the mixture issues present in the combustion chamber? I should add that I haven't seen or permitted burned oil to foul the plugs. What does concern me is unburned oil accumulating between the gasket and plug and a little on the threads. And this "oiling" seems more prevalent in the rear cylinders and not limited to just # 7 and 8. Hence my original thinking as to the pump.

          Mark, "why the Melling high volume pump". Best way to answer that is "my ignorance". I had it and it had very few hours of operation from new and hence I gave it to the engine builder to use. Bottom line is that there seems to be a lot of differing opinions as to whether a high volume pump is a bad thing to use other than heating of the oil and robbing of horsepower due to the longer gears.........two things there is concurrence by all, I should imagine. Does my 327 L79 need the pump in my sump? Decidedly no, but is it likely to be that its replacement with a standard pump will gain me another couple hundred miles to a quart?

          Jim, as to your question of photos. That is a possibility but not at the moment and I'm not sure of which photos might add to my initial description. I should think when sighting down the drilled passageway in the head all that should be seen at the bottom is a dark hole, not what looks distinctly like the machined deck of the block. If not that then an as cast situation just below the block deck. That is, unless the factory way back in the day had to concern themselves that, even with these relatively low horsepower engines of the time, the drainage flow to the sump had to be managed to control oil flow on the crankshaft, for example. In which case it would/might be difficult to see an actual very small opening at the interface between the head and block surface.

          Any other comments would be appreciated. Thanks to all for reading this and any comments, again, are welcome

          Comment

          • Owen L.
            Very Frequent User
            • September 30, 1991
            • 891

            #6
            Oil could be sucked down the intake valve stems, especially if the seals are disintegrating or gone. When the intake was off, did you look down at the tops of the intake valves? If they were black and caked with oily crust it points to seals and/or worn guides.

            Comment

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