I wanted to see if anybody could show me what the vacuum hoses that run from the cruise control transducer look like on a 1990. I lost 4 points for not having “molded hoses”. It’s line 14 in the mechanical section of the judging book.
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Josh
Welcome to NCRS Tech Board!
What narrative did your judges write for this deduction? (And where on your judging sheet?)
Mechanical item #14 Fuel and Vacuum lines has a total of 4 Originality points for Vacuum Lines.
DaveJudging Chairman Mid-Way USA (Kansas) Chapter -
They wrote "Not molded hoses" on the vacuum lines portion. My engine fuel lines did fine with no issues. In the book it says from the brake booster there is one line which mine is the original hose, but I guess my two cruise control vacuum lines are not. I just need to see what they look like.Comment
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Josh
How many miles on this car?
How long have you owned it?
Evidence any maintenance/repair to your cruise control?
When you note loss of 4 points - this was a combination of Originality AND Condition deductions -right?
Chapter or Regional meet? How did other Mechanical Section judging go?
Don't go changing things right yet. Make sure these hoses are not original before making changes.
DaveJudging Chairman Mid-Way USA (Kansas) ChapterComment
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Car has 129,239 miles on it and like 7 previous owners. I’ve owned the car for 5 years now. There’s no evidence of the cruise control being messed with that I have seen. And 8 points in total if you add up the condition and originality. This was as at regional meet and the rest of the mechanical section went decent other than a water pump replacement that was done by a previous owner and a few small things like a missing spring clamp on one of the heater hoses I overlooked. If I knew what the hoses looked like I could compare and see to be certain.
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"... And 8 points in total if you add up the condition and originality. This was as at regional meet and ..."
Josh
So those hoses were missing?
Total deduction for Originality and Condition would generate an 8 point deduction.
Dave
Judging Chairman Mid-Way USA (Kansas) ChapterComment
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I lost 4 and 4 for 8 points total. There are vacuum hoses there connected to the transducer but apparently they are the wrong ones as they wrote “not molded hoses”Comment
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Josh
Not having been at your car's judging, and having not seen your car, I'll make following comments:
4 Originality and 4 Condition points on Vacuum Lines constitute a Total Deduction. In margin, before "Vacuum Lines" on judging sheet starts, there should be Team Leaders initials acknowledging Team Leader agrees with a Total Deduction. Typically, a Total Deduction would only apply if those vacuum lines were missing or significantly dissimilar to what originally came on your car.
Are there Team Lead initials at that spot i.e. before "Vacuum Lines" on your judging sheet?
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Appearance of Originality is judged by Standard Deduction Guidelines (SDG) on items like engine blocks, batteries, tires, paint, etc or by our CDCIF Matrix judging for those items not covered by SDG.
Matrix judging evaluates Configuration, Date, Completeness, Installation, and Finish - CDCIF. A "not molded hoses" issue constitutes a Configuration issue. Each CDCIF area is equally weighted at 20%.
.... So if "not molded hoses" were your only issue, I would expect to see a 20% deduction taken against that lines 4 Originality points. e.g. 20% of 4 would generate a single (1) point deduction. Condition is judged separately as long as 10% of Originality points remain.
Long way around to saying, I don't see how you got a total deduction on this line. Hence my question about Team Leader sign-off.
Something else is in play that we're not aware of.
Dave
p.s. if this turns out to be a 1 point issue - put it on ignore.Last edited by David H.; May 1, 2025, 12:46 PM.Judging Chairman Mid-Way USA (Kansas) ChapterComment
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Yes there is the team lead signature next to the line. I found a couple photos in my phone showing what the hoses look like from the cruise control servo.Comment
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The CC hoses in your picture appear to be the expected style of hose. There should be an "EPDM" inking and a date code. But you're correct in that the CC hoses are not molded.
However: There are other vacuum lines than what are on the Cruise Control. These are generally plastic lines with molded rubber elbows. They are present at the fuel pressure regulator, EGR solenoid and valve, and the Mechanical judges may include the passenger side PCV vent hose in this line item, as technically, it is "on the engine" which is the demarcation for Mechanical judges when evaluating underhood items.
You mention the Power Brake hose. This is a separate line item that is evaluated by the Chassis team, which evaluates "what is not on the engine" itself but under the hood. The EGR valve is also evaluated by the Chassis team. When an item such as the EGR plastic plumbing falls into the realm of two or more teams, there is usually collaboration between the teams to be sure that an appropriate evaluation and deduction (if warranted) is taken by one of them, but isn't duplicated by both of them.
I haven't seen the OP's car. But I've seen high mileage cars that have had these plastic lines replaced with generic vacuum hose because of deterioration from age and time in service. Pretty common. IIRC there are three of these plastic/rubber pre-molded lines on a 1990 L98. If all three have been replaced with 'hose', there's your "full deduction" for vacuum lines.
If this was at a Regional, this year, the current regional team and NTL's are experienced. A 4 and 4 "full deduction" wasn't for the cruise control hoses. Look at the other vacuum lines on the engine itself and I think you can solve the mystery, and know what needs to be addressed.
Enjoy the experience. Cheers.Comment
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[QUOTE=Dave Perry (19643);n1577791]The CC hoses in your picture appear to be the expected style of hose. There should be an "EPDM" inking and a date code. But you're correct in that the CC hoses are not molded.
However: There are other vacuum lines than what are on the Cruise Control. These are generally plastic lines with molded rubber elbows. They are present at the fuel pressure regulator, EGR solenoid and valve, and the Mechanical judges may include the passenger side PCV vent hose in this line item, as technically, it is "on the engine" which is the demarcation for Mechanical judges when evaluating underhood items.
There is not a EPDM or a date code on the hoses that come from the cruise control servo. I do wish the judging guide specified what other vacuum hoses there are other than the power brake booster and the cruise control servo hoses for section 14 in the book.Comment
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My observations of 20 years is that the C4 team has evolved into all 5 teams striving as a collective effort to deliver as fair and accurate an overall evaluation as possible. The Team Leader oversees us, but doesn't generally dictate how we do our jobs.
I wasn't there. The chassis team evaluates the cruise control servo, and by insinuation, the hoses at the transducer. If I were on Chassis and saw the missing "EPDM", a deduction is warranted. Even though the plastic lines on the engine aren't in my Chassis area, I may take a look as to what "vacuum lines" on the car may be affected. I'd consult with the Mechanical team on how we'd (as a team) address this.
The JRMs aren't all-inclusive. Either are the judges' product knowledge. The description "There are two vacuum lines to the cruise control and one to the power brake booster" has made it through 3 revisions without being caught or corrected. The power brake hose shouldn't be in Mechanical as it is scored as a line item in Chassis. And there are other vacuum lines on the engine, which experienced C4 judges know about and will evaluate as part of "vacuum lines". If an item is supposed to be present, it can be evaluated and scored even if it is not "in the book".
The 1990 EGR solenoid is mounted by the thermostat housing on the driver side. Take a pic of it and the vacuum lines attached to it.
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IMG_3663.jpg
Hey. I did it! (With the new format, I had trouble posting the pic.)
This is a pic of the EGR solenoid (forward of the plug wires) on my Crossed Flags 1985. Note the plastic molded lines and rubber fittings. The solenoid location on the 1990 is different, but the lines and rubber fittings are similar. If your car has 'hose' stuck on the solenoid nipples, this is what the deduction was for. Cheers.Comment
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My car has the hard plastic molded lines and looks exactly as your solenoid just of course located in the front of the engine behind the thermostat housing. One of the lines connects to the EGR valve and the other connects to the throttle body. I don’t think that is what the vacuum line deduction was for.Comment
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I wasn't there. I don't know what it was for either. The opportunity for clarification was at the event when the judges and TL involved were still present.
This deduction may have been an error on the judges' part. Dave H and I have done our best to decipher possibilities. You should now understand the particulars with "vacuum lines" cruise control hoses, and the basic SOP regarding things that are not in the book.
You're prepared for the next outing. During the owner review, make sure you understand what the judges are taking deductions for. NCRS is an educational process. Enjoy the learning.
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