62 Fuelie with Pertronix troubles

[Richard L.]

My 62 Fuelie is totally stock except for an electric fuel pump bypasing the mechanical one (to ease starting) and the installation of a Pertronix module and all has been fine for years. Recently, however, the car starts, sometimes with some effort, but then it runs well until it warms up, about ten or eleven miles (always the same distance) at which point it begins to run roughly, missing and hunting at idle until it dies.
In other words, cold runs fine, warm/hot it refuses to run. I've pretty much eliminated the Injector (CSV, settings) as the culprit and concentrated on the electrics: it's not the coil since I've switched for a known good one, sparkplugs look OK (a little sooty from the idling dying gasps), so I'm left with the electronic module (Pertronix 15W-4) installed by a previous owner. In my experience modules, coils and other electric/electronic devices quit working/fail when they get hot. So now I'm faced with returning my distributor to its original factory dual-points configuration just to see if I can solve the warm/hot stalling issue. Am I going in the right direction? Can I for simplicity's sake temporarily (permanently if I don't rev over 5,000 rpm?) install one set of points and see if the car behaves normally once again? For the points reconversion, do I connect the coil + terminal to the ballast terminal 7-9 volts or the full 12 volts?
Thanks in advance for all advice and recommendations.

[Don H.]

I would install one set of points & condenser to see how it runs, easy to do. Good luck.

[Richard L.]

Agreed Don, but how about the + coil terminal connection to the ballast resistor?

[Thomas S.]

There will be passionate replies from people that swear by the Pertronix module and those that favor points. I've been down this path and opted to go back to stock points. I'm in the electronics business and have witnessed the degradation of components used in all types of electronics equipment. Heat is a big problem for electronics unless those components and the packaging are designed for the environment.

The biggest issue I had with the Pertronix part was the relatively complicated task (compared to points) of replacing one on the side of the road. I think you answered your own question by stating you don't do any high-revs, and even if you did, the dual points were designed for that scenario.

The aftermarket parts business has always been about convincing people that they have a better mouse-trap. My opinion is to go back to points.

[Duke W.]

Install the trailing point set, which is the one that fires the coil when it opens. Power to the coil should come through the ballast resistor. Check timing once the points are installed as you will probably have to adjust it. Assuming the OE centrifugal is still 24 @ 4600 max set the initial timing in the 12-16 range to achieve the optimum 36-40 total WOT advance.

Unless you are the original owner and absolutely/positively know that the engine is "original" it has probably been rebuilt somewhere along the way with a lower CR and can tolerate more initial advance.

You can further improve performance and fuel economy by installing lighter centrifugal springs in the distributor to bring full advance in as low as 2500, then rev the engine above the point of max advance and set timing in the range of 36-40, as high as in this range as possible without detonation.

Accurately setting initial timing on your engine is next to impossible because centrifugal starts at 700, and it is also next to impossible to get a Duntov cam engine to idle lower that this long enough to set timing and lock down the distributor. So using the "simulated the WOT method" (VAC disconnected and plugged, which doesn't apply to your engine since there is no VAC) you can achieve am optimum spark advance map for better performance and fuel economy.

Duke

[Richard L.]

Duke,
Can you point out to me in a picture or drawing so I can see it which is the "trailing point set" that I should install? As I said, I intend to install only one set for now to see if it solves my stalling/dying issue after just a few miles when the engine warms up.
Thanks

[Duke W.]

The shaft rotates clockwise when viewed from above, so the trailing set would be to the right of the leading set from the driver's frame of reference.

Duke

[Jim L.]

Duke,
Can you point out to me in a picture or drawing so I can see it which is the "trailing point set" that I should install? As I said, I intend to install only one set for now to see if it solves my stalling/dying issue after just a few miles when the engine warms up.
Thanks

The "914" distributor in my '60 fuelie operates on a single set of points. It's been this way for the last 40+ years. The set I disabled is the one closest to where the wire from the ignition coil enters the base of the distributor. That is the set I determined at the time to be the leading set.

For all dual point distributors, I recommend disabling the leading set of points and operating on only the trailing set. Doing this precludes an unusual and difficult to diagnose failure mode peculiar to the way dual points operate.

[Mark E.]

Agree with above. Adding electronics to an analog car makes diagnostics more challenging, adds the risk of sudden failure and takes away from the vintage character of the car.

Ditto with electric fuel pumps but with the added risk of a fuel leak under pressure in a field installed line (which are typically rubber not steel).

Speaking of this, would improper fuel pressure from the pump cause your symptoms?

[Jim L.]

Speaking of this, would improper fuel pressure from the pump cause your symptoms?

Excess fuel pressure could cause the needle/seat to not fully close and to gradually overfill the bowl of the Fuel Meter. In such case, poor engine operation could result but it would also result in fuel flowing out of the vent in the lid of the Fuel Meter and onto the engine.

It's unlikely that the fuel pressure from the OP's electric pump would suddenly increase after years of correct operation. Too, the OP isn't reporting fuel overflowing from the Fuel Meter. That suggests to me that excess fuel pressure is not the cause of his problem.

The two FI engines with Pertronix conversions for which I have first hand knowledge both have had issues with the Pertronix stuff. As a result I'm simply not a fan. Yes, I'm well aware many have had zip point zero issues with Pertronix. I'm just not one of them and I'd be casting a suspicious eye toward the Pertronix.

[Richard L.]

Thank you all for your sage advice. I'm going ahead with the installation of the trailing points retrofit in the next day or two, with setttings of .019" gap, 30 degree dwell and 10-12 BTDC timing.
How does that sound?
I'll leave, for now, the electric fuel pump question. I had not taken it into account.
Will report back on results.
Ric

[Duke W.]

I recommend 12-16 degrees initial timing, but you'll have to get the engine to idle at less that 700 to set it, which is next to impossible. Also, like my '63 340 HP engine the timing tab may be inaccurate with the 8" balancer, like if it said 14, it was more like 12. You'll be better off just static timing it.

When I installed the 365/375 HP springs that got all the centrifugal in at 2350 and put a 36 degree mark on the balancer 60 years ago I could set total WOT advance (VAC disconnected and plugged) by putting that 36 degree mark between zero and 4 on the tab, and it was like a totally different engine across the rev range.

Those springs are no longer available from GM, but if you buy a Mr. Gasket 928G spring kit and install the black springs you should be able to establish the same spark advance map less the VAC.

If you like to rev your engine over 5500 you should install a 28-32 oz. point set. See my article on breaker point selection the "restoration documents" thread near the end of the sticky section for the details.

You should find that you never have to run a second set of points again.

Duke

[Mark E.]

I'm going ahead with the installation of the trailing points retrofit in the next day or two, with setttings of .019" gap, 30 degree dwell and 10-12 BTDC timing.
Ric

Ric,

If you have a dwell meter, just set it to 30 degrees. It's redundant to also gap the points. That's a nice feature of GM distributors with the window in the cap.

[Richard L.]

Well, the points reinstall is done and working--that's the good part. The bad part is that the initial issue persists--runs good for 10 to 11 miles, till it warms up (180 degrees) and then it begins missing, won't idle and dies without working the gas pedal. A fellow FI owner who currently converted his to carburetor assures me that our winter fuel blend is percolating and causing my troubles, that May 15th is the start of Colorado's fuel summer gasoline and that should make all of the difference. I neither want to put my Injector on a shelf nor wait for our summer gas blend. I already run non-ethanol free gas so I'm not totally convinced that it would make that much of a difference. I suppose I could test the different fuel theory by running either aviation gas or racing fuel but in the long term that would be impractical for me. I'll start by checking my thermostat and installing a 160 degree unit, as well as by making sure that my cooling system is up to snuff but frankly I'm running out of options.
Any ideas that will extend my driving range from 10 miles to 110, LOL?

[Don H.]

All I have run for over 35 years is aviation fuel in both of my Fuelies (except when on the road). Do you really put that many miles on them to make it too expensive? I know some places it can be hard to get. I will not bore you with some of my experiences with aviation fuel and with pump gas but mine certainly run much better with it. Plus the added benefit that it can sit for YEARS and not go bad. Good luck.