Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

[Stephen L.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

I've had a similiar problem with judging points except it is with the paint.....too shiny etc. costs about 2% points..... I still score above 96.5%. At any other car shows people comment on the paint (very positive)......
If the rest of the car meets all the criteria for judging with minimal deductions, then you should still be able to "Topflite".
Go for it!!!!!

[Wayne M.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Larry,

I've read through your original post/question and all the posting responses. Interestingly, the non-factory side exhaust issue is one I have direct personal experience with. I purchased a '67 coupe less than two years ago that had nicely appearing side exhaust pipes. The then owner told me there were side pipes on the car when he purchased it nearly 40 years earlier but he understood they had been added by a previous owner. The owner I purchased the car from had the car judged at a chapter meet in 2021. He gave me those original judging sheets which I pulled out to use in responding to your post. FWIW, the deductions for the 'wrong' exhaust system was 82 points. Specifically, 100% deductions for Rocker Moldings 30 points, Exhaust Bezels 8 points, Exhaust System 40 points, and Rear Valance Panel 4 points. There was no deduction for exhaust tone/noise in Operations. I agree with and believe that is the correct scoring. My rationale is that if the car showed up at the meet with no exhaust components at all from the exhaust headers back, the deduction would be 82 points regardless of whether the car started life as a side or undercar exhaust car.

The question as to should there be a deduction in Operations judging for Exhaust Tone/Noise is, IMO, a judgement. There will be differing views. There is no specific guidance concerning exhaust tone/noise differences for side exhaust cars in the '67 TIMJG Operations Section 19. At idle, which is the only engine speed used during Operations, is the exhaust tone/noise that different? Consider that Operations judging occurs before all other judging. The Team Leader may or may not have examined the trim plate before Operations judging began. Even if the Team Leader examined the trim tag and noted it was a St Louis or an A O Smith car, did he inform the judges if it was an A O Smith car with side pipes so they should scrutinize the exhaust tone/noise?? And against what standard? There's none listed in the '67 TIMJG. In the worst case the additional deduction would be 25 points. So worst case is 107 (82+25). With the 10 bonus points, that leaves you with 173 points before you fall below Top Flight. Doable but not easy.

A side exhaust system on a C2 Corvette is striking, iconic. This whole side exhaust issue bothers me. In my view, Chevrolet should have made side exhaust a standard on the car with undercar exhaust the option. That can't happen now but NCRS could modify the Flight Judging rules by borrowing some elements of the Concours rules of appearance for Flight judging of side exhaust cars. My suggestion is under Flight judging there be two paths to judging side exhaust. One path would be the existing rules for all who have/want to follow them or want to restore their cars according to the existing rules. A second equally ok path would be for cars that have perfectly stock appearing/performing side exhaust that may or may not have come that way from the factory. For this second path, keep some of the requirements listed in the checklist on page 203 of the '67 TIMJG. The standard should be that it appears that it could be factory installed without scrutinizing every hole, tab and mark under the body. These cars are 57-62 years old. Most of the people who own them, including me, wish they were only that old! I hope our leadership embraces changes like the one I'm suggesting before it's too late.

In closing, I'm a realist. My expectation that one member may have any impact on policy is minimal. So to let you know what I did and plan to do in the future regarding side exhaust: I took the totally factory appearing side exhaust components off my car and had a completely original NOS undercar exhaust system installed by a reputable Corvette restoration shop. The car has been judges at two Regional events and scored a 97 at both events with no deductions related to the previous side exhaust or current undercar exhaust systems. I'm planning on having my car PV tested and hopefully achieving a Duntov award. When I'm done chasing that goal, I will reinstall the stunning side exhaust system on my car.

Good luck in whatever path you choose.

Wayne

[Gary B.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Wayne,

At the theoretical judging for added side exhaust on a C2 that I participated in at my chapter meeting about 10 years ago, there were several differences from your experience. First of all, there should be some minor deduction for the missing seals and staples on the underbody splash shields. The other big variation I witnessed was for body fiberglass, where you list 4 points. The deductions from my chapter colleagues ranged from 4 to 20 in that category. I was in the 4 camp. Finally, the range of deduction for Ops exhaust tone, leakage, noise, was 0 to 25. Some believed that if the exhaust works during Ops check, then there should be no deduction. In any case, you can see how sometimes with some judges the total deduction could be closer to 120 points than around 80 points.

Gary

[Mark F.]

[Stephen L.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

I guess the next step for determining the "tone" of side exhausts would be a DB meter and a Noise Frequency analyzer......... or a judge that has a hearing loss........

[Mark F.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

I guess the next step for determining the "tone" of side exhausts would be a DB meter and a Noise Frequency analyzer......... or a judge that has a hearing loss........

Pitch (Frequency) vs Tone (Timbre with Harmonics)

[Tim G.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

As Mark pointed out, "no weather stripping, or evidence of staple holes in fender skirt splash shields" can avoid a deduction if the weather stripping is still on the splash shields.

[Gary B.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Tim,

You could also install the rear muffler hangers to the frame and avoid a total deduction for that line item. And install some of the ground straps. This would get you a few points back, but not much.

Gary

[Mark F.]

[Tim G.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Gary, I don't know if that would work as it would obviously be an effort to get some points back and it's actually part of the exhaust system. On that line of thought, what if you installed a valance panel with the under-car exhaust holes with the bezels mounted?

[Gary B.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Tim,

I think using the undercar valance with the bezels should recover some points.

In my opinion, having a standard deduction for added side pips would take all the guesswork about % fiberglass deduction, and Ops tone/noise deduction or not, and potential shenanigans out of it.

Gary

[Larry E.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

[QUOTE=Mark Francis (30800);955250]

[Patrick H.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

In my opinion, having a standard deduction for added side pipes would take all the guesswork about % fiberglass deduction, and Ops tone/noise deduction or not, and potential shenanigans out of it.

Gary

Same for added Vintage Air, possibly depending on the series of the car (C1 vs C2).

[Dave K.]

Bill Clupper (RIP) came up with a standard point deduction for this issue and for any non OEM side pipe car. Bill was a very talented judge who came out of the Lake Erie Chapter and was an NCRS chairman. I may have his write up in my notes.

Dave Kitch

[Harry S.]

Too many variables on both pipes and added A/C to have a standard number. The old vintage systems cause more damage than the new systems. The owner keeps the original rear valance, doesn't cut the tabs, just bends the support brackets or some combination of those and many more possibilities.

If you want to pick a number 200 points for each, they will never be Duntov cars.