Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

[Larry E.]

Need current thinking on the above. JUST WANT A GENERAL GUESS ON THE NUMBER
OF POINT REDUCTION. DO NOT WANT A RUNDOWN OF ALL THE INDIVIDUAL POINTS!
Yes I know every car is a little different and points will vary. Just a general guess will do.
Thanks>Larry P.S. Let's assume the added parts where added correctly. eg. GM parts with
correct rear panel and etc.(Let also assume the Corvette is a 1966 Model)

[Mark F.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Larry,

I don't know the number of points involved, but as an A.O. Smith (DowSmith) body, it will probably be a full deduct for all the undercar and associated missing parts; as well as any body or frame modifications.

Whether the new ones are "correct" (TFP) or not is irrelevant, because as you probably already know, AOS/Dow did not put side pipes on their bodies in 1966.

[David H.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Larry

Note Mark's comments re components and installation.

80 points.

Dave

[Garry B.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

David, does your 80 point total also take into account the point deductions for what is "not" there, i.e. correct exhaust, correct rear valance, exhaust tips, correct rocker panels, exhaust hangers, exhaust clamps, etc. and even under the operations section the "exhaust tone" point deductions? A few years ago I went through converting an AOSmith car back to underside exhaust and I seem to recall in my research with known Master judges that the total point deducts for non-original side pipes was significantly more than 80 points.

[Larry M.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

And some will argue that OPS category of judging will also take points loss on exhaust sound, since sidepipes sound different than undercar exhaust. There may also be an issue if car goes for a PV Award.

Some years back JohnZ (John Hinckley) stated the point loss should be 110-120 points total for everything. This is closer to what I remember from a few years back.

Larry

[David H.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

David, does your 80 point total also take into account the point deductions for what is "not" there, i.e. correct exhaust, correct rear valance, exhaust tips, correct rocker panels, exhaust hangers, exhaust clamps, etc. and even under the operations section the "exhaust tone" point deductions? A few years ago I went through converting an AOSmith car back to underside exhaust and I seem to recall in my research with known Master judges that the total point deducts for non-original side pipes was significantly more than 80 points.

Gary

OP wanted a "guess" with NO DETAILS. 80 points.

Dave

p.s. for those that want to do their own estimate - judging sheets can be downloaded from header link under "SERVICES", then "Judging Awards", then "Judging Score Sheets". Owner stated 1966 so mid-year. Gary Barnes post called out major areas.

[Gary B.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

[Mark F.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Larry,

I don't know the number of points involved, but as an A.O. Smith (DowSmith) body, it will probably be a full deduct for all the undercar and associated missing parts; as well as any body or frame modifications.

Whether the new ones are "correct" (TFP) or not is irrelevant, because as you probably already know, AOS/Dow did not put side pipes on their bodies in 1966.

....Gary

Hi Gary,

I agree.

My only reason for pointing out an AOS/Dow body is that is what Larry started out with -

AND - it's much easier to take the full deduct (whatever it turns out to be) because you don't have to search out and confirm all the individual items needed on a St Louis car to evaluate whether side pipes were added including some or all of the following:

• No evidence of filled-in exhaust outlet holes in the rear fiberglass valance panel
• TFP cut lower front side fender tabs for side-mounted exhaust cover clearance
• TFP cut rear quarter panel lower tabs to allow exit of side-mounted exhaust
• Lock pillar-to-underbody filler panel is cut TFP to provide proper radius for exhaust pipe clearance
• No evidence of removed rocker panel support brackets
• Absence of ground straps and non-threaded holes in the cross member
• No weather stripping, or evidence of staple holes in fender skirt splash shields
• No evidence of muffler hanger brackets previously attached to the rear frame ends

[Garry B.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Dave, not to word pick but, I don't see where the OP says NO DETAILS. He says,"DO NOT WANT A RUNDOWN OF ALL THE INDIVIDUAL POINTS!" of which I only provided SOME of those. Clearly the OP is trying to decide what to do and how his decision will impact his judging sheet. If you also note, the OP then begins to ask more specific questions, "Let's assume the added parts where added correctly. eg. GM parts with
correct rear panel and etc.(Let also assume the Corvette is a 1966 Model)". My comment was not meant to challenge you on your "guess" but was intended to help the OP be more aware of the factors that may come into play with his decision. I see no harm in my post to either of you.

Gary

OP wanted a "guess" with NO DETAILS. 80 points.

Dave

p.s. for those that want to do their own estimate - judging sheets can be downloaded from header link under "SERVICES", then "Judging Awards", then "Judging Score Sheets". Owner stated 1966 so mid-year. Gary Barnes post called out major areas.

[Larry E.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Thanks so much for your input. Let me tell you more about "My Story". Have two 66 Rally Red Corvettes;one
Convertible(St.L Body) and one Coupe(AOS Body). Had the Convertible a long time and always wanted a matching coupe. When this
one came along I got it. Took over 2 years to find.(Picture Below) All numbers match;even got all original LOF
glass including the Windshield. Trim Tag/Vin plate original along with the Protecto Plate. This car was the spitting
image of my brothers(now deceased). He bought(Brand New) like this for $3900 from Malcolm Konner Chevrolet in N.J.
So car is kinda sentimental to me. The owner who added the sidepipes did it because he liked the looks of them;
was not out to fool anybody. When car was judged in the (Concours) stock class two years ago with the ILNCRS it got
the Blue Ribbon with a score of 97+. All the judges that judged my car said I should be in the "Flight"
judging not Concours. They told me even though I would take a big hit in points because of the added pipes to a
AOS car that I would have a good chance of still getting Top Flight award. That being said one would ask me
the following:
1)Are you unhappy that it is a AOS Body rather than a St. Louis body?
MY ANSWER IS>NO; I HAVE ASKED THIS ON MANY OTHER MEMBERS THROUGH MY YEARS AND THE
MAJORITY(NOT BY MUCH) HAVE TOLD ME THEY THOUGHT THE AOS BODIES WHERE BETTER THAN THE ST. LOUIS BODY. TAKE IT FOR WHAT THAT IS WORTH
2)Are you unhappy that a previous owner added the sidepipes?
MY ANSWER AGAIN IS NO> THEY LOOK SO MUCH BETTER WITH THEM BUT YOU DO SUFFER WHEN
BEING JUDGED.

So here I ponder to take a chance and get it judged in Flight Judging. It takes a lot of Money/time/effort
to go through this. Would it be worth doing if I only get a "Second Flight"?
Would like some comments on this. Open for suggestions. Pictures Below and thanks again. Larry

[Garry B.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Larry, I love reading stories like yours. Having been through converting my '67 A.O.Smith car to under-car exhaust, I think you are making the right decision. Frankly it is a PITA to remove the side pipes and all that goes with it. Many of your points are in the OPs check, so make sure everything works on that list. Even if you get hit with the full 120 point deducts, that is 2.6% of the total leaving plenty of room to fit into the 94 and up for Top Flight. I am sure there are other areas that you could check and correct to gain other needed points. You have a great group of guys in IL and I am sure they would not steer you wrong. All the best to you and good luck if you choose to pursue Flight judging.

[Chris H.]

[Kent S.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

I converted my '65 AOS body from sidepipes to undercar before I had it judged (TF and no deduct on exhaust) and yes, it is a royal PITA. Not only is there repair to the fiberglass but to make matters worse all of the brackets for the rocker molding had been cut off and had to be replaced. In my case I just didn't like the sound of the pipes in my ear, especially since the car is a base motor powerglide - to me those things just didn't add up.

[Bill M.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Do you like side pipes if so you found your car.

[David M.]

Re: Points reduction For C2 added sidepipes on AOS Body

Nice coupe.
I really like C2 early C3s with side exhaust. C3s with the hooker style pipes black or chrome depending on the car color.
I do appreciate a fully restored correct car down to the original air in the tires. But I also like a driver too. I have both.

Its all about the influences in ones life as to what draws you to a particular thing.

What got me hooked on the look was my uncle Sam's 68 silver/black roadster.
He was a car flipper back in the late 60s-70s. He knew how to wrench paint and air brush.

He picked up this 68 L79 in 73. It needed top end engine work paint and a top.
He went through it and added the flat black hookers. I watched him rebuild it. It came out nice.

For my 8th birthday he and my aunt stopped over for cake. I was in the front yard and could hear him coming.
Before my mom knew they had arrived he kicked my aunt out and said hey get in I want to show you how it runs
Told my aunt "tell Carolee (mom) we'll be right back".

At the end of my 1/4 mile street was an expressway. He gets on the expressway and gets on it pretty good, spirited, nothing crazy.
This expressway had traffic lights.

We come up to the red light he down shifts and comes to a stop in the left lane. The light tuns green. Sam pulls a U turn. 1/2 through it he says hang on.

He hammers the throttle. My memory crystal clear.... I remember the whole event like it was yesterday. I couldn't raise my head off the seat. I could see smoke billowing from the rear end through the rear view mirror. The roar of that 11:1 small block on the red line was incredible. I tilted my head left and watched him speed shift. To this day I think he could out shift Grumpy Jenkins. WOW.

I was already a car guy cuz dad had a 57 Vert, 66 Toro, and a slew or Olds Cutlasses.

I remember getting out of the car at my house. The car had that distinct smell of leaded gas vulcanized rubber and heat.
My little legs were still shaking from the overwhelming adrenaline rush. I couldn't shake the the S.E. grin off my face all night.

Sam said don't tell you mom just say we went for a birthday ride.
Best gift ever. Cemented me as a Corvette guy and a speed junky.

Sam's been gone for 5 years now. But he lives on through me and his car crazy daughters who I still gather with.
The middle daughter got hie 56 Bel Air the youngest got his vette. The 3 daughters get a kick out of this story.