Reading thru the 67 Judging Guide it says the radiator top should have four or five indentations on the top. My question is, is the lack of these indentation marks going to result in point reductions? My current radiator is a Dewitt reproduction that was made over 10 years ago and lacks these marks. I have my original radiator and you have to look very hard to see any of these marks. One very faint mark is to the right of the seam next to the balance tube. That mark is very faint, and it looks like Harrison filled the indentation with a product that left the surface a little rough under the paint. Based on my original I assume some of the production Harrison radiators may not have noticeable indentations, which makes me ask if they are required for no point reductions. Thoughts? Thanks, Kurt
SB Radiator Indentation Question
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Re: SB Radiator Indentation Question
Kurt,
This topic has been covered on the TDB before as shown in this link as well as many others.
https://www.forums.ncrs.org/showthre...or+clamp+marks- Top
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Re: SB Radiator Indentation Question
So reviewing the other post regarding the Dewitts reproduction radiator, I asked the question about how to reproduce the clamp marks on the top and bottom of the radiator, but never got a reply. I bought a new DeWitts reproduction radiator back in 2009 and it does not have the "clamp" marks.
Has anyone reproduced these marks? If so. how did you do it?
If the point deduct is only a single point, I'm not too concerned, but if they are going to wack me for the entire 3 points for configuration, then I'd consider removing it and putting the clamp marks on it.
Thanks,
James- Top
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Re: SB Radiator Indentation Question
the latest KC Chapter Newsletter contains an article by Tony Stein, describing how he recommends replicating the clamp marks on the DeWitts cooling box. And, he says he takes the whole Conf deduction at Regional and National when they're not there. (3 points). He'll check in to this thread I'm sure when he sees it.. You could PM or email him and ask him to send you his Tech article..- Top
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Re: SB Radiator Indentation Question
Kurt,
It is definitely worth replicating the clamp marks on the radiator. As Tony told me, the judges look for the indication of the markings. You can find photos of the markings on this site or, possibly, the internet. The marks can be replicated with the radiator out of the car or still in the car (takes a bit more care as painting is involved). Avoiding the 3 point deduct is well worth the effort.
Terry- Top
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Re: SB Radiator Indentation Question
Terry,
My concern is the Judging Guide says the top of the radiator has four to five indentations and that is what the judges will be looking for. My concern is that in some cases the factory installed Harrison radiators did not have obvious indentations. I still have my original radiator and you would have to look hard to see any of these marks as they are very faint. The current 67 Judging Guide on page 176 shows the indentations and they are very pronounced. Nothing like my 67E original. I would argue these marks varied and the judging guide should indicate these marks may or may not be present.- Top
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Re: SB Radiator Indentation Question
Kurt,
If you have an original radiator, it should be a good guide. I have a '65 and it has a DeWitt radiator. In my first flight judging I took a hit for lack of the clamp marks. Tony Stein gave me advice on how he adds the markings to a reproduction radiator. Went ahead and did it and it turned out well. No deducts on my next flight judging (Duntov). He told me they look for an "indication" of the marks. I would tend to agree that photos I have seen (and mine too) are well pronounced markings. I have an original 65M dated radiator that has the factory markings and they are not as pretty or well pronounced as added markings I have seen. Anyway, check with your team leader and see what they have to say. Then proceed accordingly. As for me, I'd want the 3 points.
Terry- Top
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Re: SB Radiator Indentation Question
Yes, I know, its only 3 out of 4500.Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
71 "deer modified" coupe
72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
2008 coupe
Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.- Top
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Re: SB Radiator Indentation Question
Patrick et al.,
Some judges consider configuration an all or nothing judging item. Meaning, if any portion of an item does not have the correct configuration then the entire 20% for configuration is forfeited. I understand that perspective, but personally I don’t ascribe to it. Some judges do, some don’t. It’s a philosophical choice.
If I were judging, I’d probably assign a 1 point hit for no clamp marks. But I am not in the all or nothing camp.
Gary
However, as an organization we really should be consistent.
The example I give is that I don't take all the configuration points because of a couple of incorrect screws on a carburetor.
I would be interested in whether the "higher ups" or the upcoming Judging School would suggest an all-or-nothing, or a graduated scoring.
Currently I think it tends to vary by year team.Vice-Chairman (West), Michigan Chapter NCRS
71 "deer modified" coupe
72 5-Star Bowtie / Duntov coupe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/124695...57649252735124
2008 coupe
Available stickers: Engine suffix code, exhaust tips & mufflers, shocks, AIR diverter valve broadcast code.- Top
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Re: SB Radiator Indentation Question
So, just an observation based on my personal experience in having my car judged. No matter what level of judging result has been achieved, most have the desire to increase their final score, some to advance to the next flight level and others simply to reach the highest score possible within monetary limits. Once a score of, say, 98.0% has been achieved, the cost per point to advance typically goes up. IMO the cost per point to gain with proper radiator clamp marks is relatively low, especially if you can do the work yourself. Anyway, for me it was low hanging fruit. Nuff said!- Top
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Re: SB Radiator Indentation Question
All. I'm glad this topic was brought up. I recently wrote a tech article how to create the appearance of these factory clamping marks on the top plate of your new (and beautiful) DeWitt radiators for C2 small block rads and the 1965 L78 rads too. You can save a 3-point deduction for a cost of about 75 bucks and a couple hours of your time. The article was recently published in the Kansas City Chapter Newsletter, and it will be published in the Texas and Northern California chapter newsletter. If you want it published in your chapter's newsletter, I'll be happy to share it with any chapter wanting a tech article to publish. It is no secret. I want you to read it and avoid a 3-point hit. I get no pleasure out of giving deductions. I want to help you keep your points. Email me and I'll send you a pdf of my tech article. You can send me a PM with your email address, and I'll send you a pdf copy of my tech article. Gene Leonard and I judge chassis for KC Strawmyre (1965) and Bill Calorico (1966).
This may also apply to early C3 radiators, but unfortunately, I do not speak C3!
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. TonyRegion VII Director (serving members in Arkansas, Kansas, Louisiana, Missouri, Oklahoma and Texas).
Original member of the Kansas City Chapter, est'd 07/11/1982.
Member: 1965 and 1966 National Judging Teams
Judging Chairman--Kansas City Chapter.
Co-Editor of the 1965 TIM and JG, 6th and 7th editions.
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