Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti-seize

[Dan D.]

[QUOTE=Duke Williams (22045);930749]


The Merc uses bolts, not nuts on studs to mount the wheels. Over the years if I needed to remove the wheels for maintenance I never had a problem getting the wheel over the hub, lining up the holes, holding the wheel in place with one hand and starting at least one bolt with the other hand, but last year when installing the wheels after a brake fluid flush I could not do the above due to loss of shoulder strength.

I recalled that the tool kit had a stud that you install into the hub thread, then you can hang the tire on the stud and get the bolts started. I had never used in before, but I tip my hat to the Mercedes engineers that anticipated by loss of shoulder strength 35 years down the road.


I also recommend coating the wheel studs/bolts with anti-seize compound, and also on the mating surfaced of the fasteners and wheel. Have you ever heard "squeaking" as you torqued a wheel fastener? That's the sound of the steel screaming in agony due to the galling pain. Anti-seize will eliminate the pain and allow the fastener to smoothly come up to torque and the final value will be much more consistent than if the threads are dry.

Duke[/QUOTE

Hi Duke

I hear you with shoulder strength. Starting at age 50, you lose 10% muscle mass every decade. I'm 82.

I didn't think you were supposed to lubricate wheel studs/nuts. They are dry right from the factory. Think it is the possibly of coming lose with the shock/vibration wheels encounter - No locking devices.

Dannn

[Terry M.]

Re: Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti-seize

Dannn

We lose not only shoulder strength, but also joint mobility.

There are numerous threads here and elsewhere in the inter-web about the use of lubricants on threaded fasteners. Each side is adamant about the righteousness of their position..Start that discussion all over again and I can almost predict where the discussion will go. To each his own is my mantra on the subject.

[Dan D.]

Re: Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti-seize

Hi Terry,

I was just sympathizing with Duke, seeing how he mentioned it twice in the one post. And its not just shoulders, its knees, hips, and whatever else. It's so much fun to get old.

I have been following this forum for several years, but don't recall seeing any discussion about lug nuts specifically, so I thought I would see what others had to say. But I don't want to open up pandor's box or go down any rabbit hole, so I will leave it at that.

Dann

[Terry M.]

Re: Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti-seize

Dan

I am sorry if my earlier post came across as a negative comment on your post. I didn't mean it that way.

I could be wrong about the discussions of anti-seize or no anti-seize being on this board.. I lurk on several other boards where this could have been a subject. If you don't recall any such discussion on this board, perhaps it is time to air it here. A separate thread on that subject would make it more likely to garner the diverse opinions on the subject. I would be pleased to offer my two cents on the subject on such a thread.

[Dan D.]

Re: Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti-seize

Dan

I am sorry if my earlier post came across as a negative comment on your post. I didn't mean it that way.

I could be wrong about the discussions of anti-seize or no anti-seize being on this board.. I lurk on several other boards where this could have been a subject. If you don't recall any such discussion on this board, perhaps it is time to air it here. A separate thread on that subject would make it more likely to garner the diverse opinions on the subject. I would be pleased to offer my two cents on the subject on such a thread.

Hi Terry,

I didn't mean my response to be negative either, so I guess we are even.

But I agree, perhaps we should bring it around again. I think it could be interesting and informative, and many of us could learn something from it - there are many new members too.

Anti-seize is good stuff, I use it on most of the fasteners that I assemble. It definitely reduces the friction, and sufficiently so. So if the factory specifies a certain torque spec for their lug nuts, and that most certainly is with the nuts dry, then applying anti-seize will result in over torquing the nuts, which would not be good. I am hoping Duke will respond back after reading this. His comment about "squeaking" means that the nuts archived no where near the required torque value. Most of the force was eaten up overcoming friction.

As a side note, I can also tell you for certain that if you are assembling stainless nuts on stainless bolts, then you darn well better use anti-seize. Because if you don't, it will immediately gall so bad you will destroy the fastener trying to get it apart.

Dannn


If you want to start a new thread (it definitely needs to be a new thread), I will support it and help if I can.

[Dan D.]

Re: Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti-seize

I have a lot to say about stainless fasteners. We use them in the field where I work, but they come wax coated.

I'll see if I can get some help to see if we can get the three or four posts about anti-seize pulled out of here and gathered into a new thread. I am not sure how to do that (gather them togetheer), but there has to be someone on here more tech savvy than I am.

Hi Terry again.

We used a lot of stainless in my job before I retired, but mostly small ones.

I have never heard of wax coated stainless, but if it stops the galling then it sounds like a good fix.

We should be able to get the administrators to help getting the anti-seize threads pulled together.

Similar to what you said, I have a lot to say about torquing fasteners, with supporting documentation, and have been going to submit a new thread on it, but I just have not done it yet. With this discussion going on, I'll see if I can get to it next week, and we can apply it to this discussion as well.

And speaking about this discussion, we probably should not be adding to this thread as we have hijacked the OPs thread. Your thoughts?

Dannnn

[Duke W.]

Re: Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti-seize

Hi Terry,

I am hoping Duke will respond back after reading this. His comment about "squeaking" means that the nuts archived no where near the required torque value. Most of the force was eaten up overcoming friction.

I think Terry had the best response. It's like the engine oil and cam "wars". Everybody has an opinion and an a...

When the wheels were installed at the plants the threads were clean, but over time in the field they corrode due to moisture intrusion from driving in the rain and just plain age. Then you can get that stick-slip friction that causes the squeaking and actual final torque values/clamping force is all over the place. OEM wheel fastener torque recommendations are usually in a range, and with anti-seize I use the lower end.

Back when I was running cars in track events I swapped tires back and forth between track and road tires, so I swapped wheels a lot and never had a problem removing the bolts or torquing them up smoothly, and none ever came loose.

I recall that the GM power manuals recommend oil on head bolts, and steel fasteners into aluminum all need anti-seize. I learned this on sixties vintage Honda motorcycle engines.

Duke

[Terry M.]

Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti-seize

A discussion of the use of anti seize on threaded fasteners began on another thread where it seemed to be off topic. I have asked the administrator to move a copy of those posts to this thread so that we can continue that discussion without losing the original topic and so that future readers can find this subject. My thanks to Gary C for his help with this project.

[Keith M.]

Re: Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti- eize

Subscribed, interested, don't see other posts migrated yet. Thx

[Bill M.]

[Mark F.]

The indicator is a color-calibrated real-time display of tensile load. The indicator is bright red when the fastener is loose and gradually transitions to black when the fastener is tightened to its desired tensile load, or Design Tension.

http://www.smartbolts.com/smartbolt-dti/

They also discuss lubrication and torque
http://www.smartbolts.com/insights/i...%20efficiently.

[Tim S.]

Re: Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti- eize

I just use white litium grease on fastners that do not seal.

[Joe L.]

Re: Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti- eize

All------

If you look at the stud holes in steel wheels that have served a long time, you will often note that the holes are enlarged. This is the result of years of the nut galling the tapered seat of the holes. This results in the standard lug nuts being ineffective in properly seating. Folks replace lug nuts when they note the nuts are badly worn. But, if the wheel lug nut seats are "wallowed out" the new lug nuts are not going to do much good. At that point, the only "fix" is to use what are known as "bulge" lug nuts.

Using anti-seize on the nut seats avoids or, at least, greatly reduces the above problem. I wish I had discovered that a LONG, LONG time ago.

[Terry M.]

Re: Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti-seize

OK, Now that all the previous posts are together I'll snare my ideas and my work experience.

I use anti seize on my daily drivers because they (and I) live in an area where salt is used liberally on the roads in winter. The Corvettes are not on the road in those conditions and so I don't use it on those cars.

In theory one should reduce the torque applied to a fastener when using anti seize, but I do like Dukes idea of using the torque low value especially singe the torque on wheel nuts is not particularly critical for steel wheels. Additionally now days in the automotive assembly plant they torque all the wheel nuts at the same time to an electronic value. Those are conditions that we can not duplicate in the field.

Aluminum wheels are a whole other matter, but since modern Corvettes all have aluminum wheels we shouldn't ignore them. I'll just stick with no anti seize and factory torque specifications. That has worked for my 2008 for 15 years and 97K miles.

As Duke points out, the original wheel torque is given for new dry fasteners, and field conditions and ware of the threads will rapidly alter the torque needed to get adequate clamping force. I suppose if one were anal enough, replacing the wheel studs and nuts after X-number of uses could be postulated, but I doubt many of us would go that far.

With respect to Dan's mention of stainless steel fasteners: When I worked for the electric utility we used stainless fasteners (5/16 to 1/2-inch generally). I noticed the bolts were wax coated by the manufacturer. I assUmed that was for lubrication since it wasn't needed for anti corrosion. The applications where these were used were outdoors where they might be loosened every decade or two but no corrosion could be tolerated due to the need for firm electrical contact. Additional anti corrosion materials were applied to the connection (Not the fastener threads, but the connection the fasteners are clamping) when installed. Generally a product called No-Ox-ID was used for this application.

[Mark E.]

Re: Lubrication on threaded fasteners or anti-seize

When should threadlocker vs antiseize vs nothing be used? I'm thinking of suspension and driveline fasteners.