Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

[Michael J.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

So the car was awarded three Bowties and rejected the 4th for paint in 2003 (I was there watching the judging and heard it). But in 2014 Bloomington gave it their Survivor Gold...their highest. .

We need to try and keep the terminology straight, as Bowtie is a very misunderstood award (I knew one owner who got 1 Star thinking he won a Bowtie).. This car was awarded 3 "Stars", and didn't win a "Bowtie Award" because you need 4 Stars to get a Bowtie. So it would be referred to as a Star car. As for Bloomington, many of us regard their judging awards as inferior to NCRS and less rigorous.

[Vinnie P.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

It's not just the paint that needs to score 85%, it's the entire exterior that needs to score 85%

[Stewart L.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

In Bow Tie judging, the exterior paint recommendation per the reference manual is that 75% of the paint is original factory applied to pass. Many of the cars were sent to the paint repair area at the factory for paint repair so this needs to be taken in to consideration. The score for the entire exterior is 85% which would include parts that have been removed and reinstalled for side exhaust, missing fender and valance parts and front end repair.
Back in the Lacquer painting days, paint that was mixed at the manufacturer (DuPont, Rinshed Mason, Ditzler) and shipped to the jobber were commonly referred to as Factory Packs as opposed to paint that was mixed by the paint jobber or body shop with an in house mixing machine. The thought was that you got a better color match with a factory pack. They came in cans like any other paint with a pre printed label.

[Ronald L.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Vinnie,
The comment in judging was the hood was off color. My take on this is that the hood was the reason.

Having said that, and having two un molested 66's, one that was one owner, (before me), the exterior should be straight forward if the paint meets "a" defined standard. In this example, even at 93,000 miles it had its original T3's, original wipers, moldings, glass, seals, antenna, rockers, bumpers, and paint.

Now the paint had rust red sealer showing in places, which made it very clear no panels had been messed with. Going a little further, if the hood was redone, it will show details that will be inconsistent with age, especially other horizontal panels.

I would still like to see the "standard".

[Ronald L.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Stewart,
Thanks for clarifying the judging. How do you measure 75% original paint?


Now - paint going into the OEMs arrived at the factory in bulk. Yes, it was not four separate cans of the different components that go into a specific color code paint, but they weren't cans either. With any high volume production, taking more than a gallon of paint each, too much variation would result. Still that would not lend to an off-color hood since the car was painted all at once. Unless...that black stripe wasn't correct and they did repair at the factory....

I have pictures a decade later of how bad new GM paint jobs were on Corvettes...we need to get a carbon dating machine, that will flush out the fresh paint jobs.

In Bow Tie judging, the exterior paint recommendation per the reference manual is that 75% of the paint is original factory applied to pass. Many of the cars were sent to the paint repair area at the factory for paint repair so this needs to be taken in to consideration. The score for the entire exterior is 85% which would include parts that have been removed and reinstalled for side exhaust, missing fender and valance parts and front end repair.
Back in the Lacquer painting days, paint that was mixed at the manufacturer (DuPont, Rinshed Mason, Ditzler) and shipped to the jobber were commonly referred to as Factory Packs as opposed to paint that was mixed by the paint jobber or body shop with an in house mixing machine. The thought was that you got a better color match with a factory pack. They came in cans like any other paint with a pre printed label.

[Stewart L.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Stewart,
Thanks for clarifying the judging. How do you measure 75% original paint?


Now - paint going into the OEMs arrived at the factory in bulk. Yes, it was not four separate cans of the different components that go into a specific color code paint, but they weren't cans either. With any high volume production, taking more than a gallon of paint each, too much variation would result. Still that would not lend to an off-color hood since the car was painted all at once. Unless...that black stripe wasn't correct and they did repair at the factory....

I have pictures a decade later of how bad new GM paint jobs were on Corvettes...we need to get a carbon dating machine, that will flush out the fresh paint jobs.

Unlike Flight body judging, where each panel is given a standard deduction of 5% of the body score regardless of the panel size, there is no guidance given for determining the exterior paint in Bow Tie judging. From my experience, it is the actual percentage of the car, without regard to the individual panel. If it's close, it goes to a discussion between the exterior judges and team leader for calculation. It's not an exact science. I did follow the auction regarding the car in question as I was advising a friend that was bidding but can't come to any definite conclusions without seeing the car in person. One of the previous owners stated that the surround panel was painted and not the hood from what I remember.
As far as the factory packs, I know what you are saying as far as the drums of paint shipped to the manufacturer. Factory Pack is simply a generic term used in the trade for a quantity of paint that was mixed by the paint manufacturer and sent to the local paint jobber. Whether it matched or not was a roll of the dice. Its was different than the paint mixed for the manufacturers.
One of my first body shop jobs in the 70's was at a Chev dealer and I did the factory warranty work including a lot of Corvettes because none of the commissioned painters wanted to mess with warranty work, they had the dumb kid that liked Corvettes do it. So I am aware of the poor quality of the paint from the factory.

[Gary S.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Thanks Michael...I changed Bowties to stars...I knew that of course but brain and fingers don't always work together.

[Eric P.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Ronald,
Mark did capture the comment from the BaT listing I was referring to in both my post #9 and his reply in post #16 above in this thread. I believe that is an incredible Corvette, and I am far less than qualified to make any comment myself on the paint on that or any Corvette. I was simply making a point that comment was added to the listing, and it appeared to come from a reliable source who was also a previous owner.

Again, I will say that is an awesome original Corvette, and a few of the previous owners were kind enough to provide some interesting and valuable information for the bidders and buyers to be well informed and make their own decision and conclusion on what they were bidding on in that auction.
Eric

[Paul D.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

I guess it depends on how the overspray appears. Black over yellow with some yellow still showing would be consistent with factory application in my mind. Any yellow over top of black would indicate paint repair to me.

[Ronald L.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Thanks for the update, appears more details are there and like many say, cannot tell w/o seeing car first hand.

Ronald,
Mark did capture the comment from the BaT listing I was referring to in both my post #9 and his reply in post #16 above in this thread. I believe that is an incredible Corvette, and I am far less than qualified to make any comment myself on the paint on that or any Corvette. I was simply making a point that comment was added to the listing, and it appeared to come from a reliable source who was also a previous owner.

Again, I will say that is an awesome original Corvette, and a few of the previous owners were kind enough to provide some interesting and valuable information for the bidders and buyers to be well informed and make their own decision and conclusion on what they were bidding on in that auction.
Eric

[Ronald L.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Stewart,
Did you see many like this quality???

IMG_0383.jpg

Unlike Flight body judging, where each panel is given a standard deduction of 5% of the body score regardless of the panel size, there is no guidance given for determining the exterior paint in Bow Tie judging. From my experience, it is the actual percentage of the car, without regard to the individual panel. If it's close, it goes to a discussion between the exterior judges and team leader for calculation. It's not an exact science. I did follow the auction regarding the car in question as I was advising a friend that was bidding but can't come to any definite conclusions without seeing the car in person. One of the previous owners stated that the surround panel was painted and not the hood from what I remember.
As far as the factory packs, I know what you are saying as far as the drums of paint shipped to the manufacturer. Factory Pack is simply a generic term used in the trade for a quantity of paint that was mixed by the paint manufacturer and sent to the local paint jobber. Whether it matched or not was a roll of the dice. Its was different than the paint mixed for the manufacturers.
One of my first body shop jobs in the 70's was at a Chev dealer and I did the factory warranty work including a lot of Corvettes because none of the commissioned painters wanted to mess with warranty work, they had the dumb kid that liked Corvettes do it. So I am aware of the poor quality of the paint from the factory.

[Stewart L.]

Re: Survivor '67 on BAT and paint question

Stewart,
Did you see many like this quality???

[ATTACH=CONFIG]115619[/ATTACH]

We stripped and repainted more than I could count. Called them Peelers.