1969 ZL-1 convertible

[Michael J.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

Well, all I can say is that reading through the threads on this car, and hearing what the experts are saying, I would not want to be the new owner of this one.

[Philip A.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

Wow. So this thread is saying that a respected auction house and seller are misrepresenting a car they hope will bring $3 million... Or they believe it's legitimate but are mistaken?

Serious accusation.

It's an auction house. They make their money on sales commission; not authentication. They are disclosing what the seller has and claims. Any fraud is on the seller not the auction house. That protects them. Buyer beware! and do your due diligence!

Think about all the "real" 1967 427/435 cars that have gone through auction houses.

[Jon H.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

I wouldn't expect for those online sources to have the background knowledge on this car to tell if it is real or not. They just push out content!

[Jon H.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

The auctions are where a lot of cars go that have issues and questionale provenance.

[Jon H.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

Interesting one invoice list the automatic transmission as an option where the other does not. The purchaser signatures definitely do not appear to be from the same signer.

Both invoices are signed and differences can be noted like the engine numbers etc. Similar to the fact that the auction company is preseting two tank stickers one with an identification number and then a black and white copy of a tank sticker more recently with the id number intact.

[Roy S.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

So you use Google for proof. Try googling the VIN not sure that will show anything as they keep it pretty tightly hidden.

[Roy S.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

I have no dog in this fight other than finding the truth but. Worth note NICB records which contain the ident can be checked with proper credentials, regardless of whether done legally or by deception the day, date, time and individual accessing the info is all recorded in the file, you will find the file for the orange car which contains the ident was accessed recently just prior to the appearance of the new iteration tank sheet with the ident in place. It is supposed to take crime or events such as theft or insurance fraud to access these records. Knowing the ident had appeared after being previously missing in action. The NICB record was checked and surprise, surprise the file had been recently accessed so the searching party had access to the ident.

[Justin S.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

Why should Road and Track, Hagerty and News Corp care? Even Sotheby's for that matter? They get their commission.

[Michael J.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

Here is another interesting hypo-o-rama article on this car:

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/1969-chevrolet-corvette-stingray-zl1-auction-one-of-a-kind-1234790465-1234790465/?fbclid=IwAR3GRObO4xg97gB3apTcfnXRrFX5sg4l_KTsLTO2eL5O2eIMkF73ybU_5hQ

BTW, Kevin Mackay says he never owned this car, and they reference a "1987" L88 that is the highest priced Corvette sold at auction...so....

[Patrick B.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

The hypo-o-rama article introduces the laughable Closed Chamber ZL-1. I think the way you get one of those is to buy an early L88 with closed chamber heads then reassemble the parts on an aluminum block a few months later. The idea that open chamber heads were not available until March 69 is simply not true. I have the engine out of ZL-1 Camaro #41 that was in the car when it was scrapped in the mid-70’s. It has an August 69 block that was installed as a fitted block by Amatucci Chevrolet (a sister dealership to Sport Chevrolet who sold the car new), but the heads and manifold are original dated parts. The open chamber heads are dated December 1968 and the manifold is dated October 1968. Since there were 40 ZL-1 Camaros built before the car these parts came from, there are probably even earlier open chamber heads used in production. I can’t remember the days in December that the open chamber heads were cast because because you can’t see the dates without removing the heads, and it has been a long time since I had this engine apart. A picture of the engine with the manifold removed in my 70 LT-1 car is my avatar. By the way, aluminum blocks have provisions for two addition head attachment studs. The open chamber heads have provisions for these extra head fasteners, but the closed chamber heads do not. I am doubtful that GM would put closed chamber ZL-1s into production with fewer head fasteners than designed for. Also it would not be likely for GM to use the same engine suffix for open and closed chamber engines, and only one suffix is published for each possible ZL-1 application. We know GM changed suffix for much less important differences such as oil pan, clutch, and pulleys.

As an interesting aside, the original block seems to have escaped from Amatucci Chevrolet after the fitted block warrantee replacement since an engine with its VIN is reported to exist by the ZL-1 Camaro websites. It probably doesn’t have December 1968 heads though.

Another interesting aside, I just remembered that there is one closed chamber “ZL-1” that most of us have seen, and it actually belongs to Kevin Mackey. It is the GM photo ZL-1 with all the pretty colors that was on the cover of the famous “How to Hot Rod Big Block Chevrolets”. I put ZL-1 in quotes for it because that engine is a 1967 experimental block with casting number beginning with zero, not a production ZL-1 Block cast by Winters that has many differences from the experimental block. You can see the casting number on the front of the block below the manifold. These blocks were raced in Jim Hall’s Chaparrels in 1967 long before open chamber heads. The Can-Am engines using this block had 4 Weber Carbs. The GM photo engine with the ZL -1 single Holley is like a Can-Am engine with closed chamber heads but is probably just some preproduction parts assembled for a photo shoot. Still maybe that’s where they got the idea that the orange Corvette could be a closed chamber ZL-1.

[Richard F.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

I remember seeing the 50 (or so) Camaros in a fenced-in yard in back of a speed shop in a suburb northwest of Chicago. Don't remember the name of the shop on Oakton St. in Des Plaines, but the cars were there. They were totally "plain Jane" with hubcaps and no striping of any kind. We never could figure how this small (but very well-respected) shop could have arranged such a deal. Then, one day they were gone.

[Michael J.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

I just noticed this in the video description Sotheby's posted on this car: "After much scrutinous review of its comprehensive factory documentation, 710209 was awarded Bloomington Gold certification and formally recognized as the first of the two factory-built ZL-1 Corvettes." Interesting Bloomington certification is mentioned as "formally" recognizing this car as the first one of the two ZL-1s. Does Bloomington do that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mesRElVj5pI

[Jon H.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

No, Bloomington does not certify the authenticity of a car. The auction company/owner is using the gold certification judging as was a to spin the story to support the claim that it is factory built ZL1.

[Jon H.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

This is from the BG owners advisory doc: "Bloomington Gold and/or its judges make no express or implied warranties orrepresentations as to the authenticity of any vehicle. Certificates issued are merelyindicators, in varying degrees, of how far the restoration or preservation varies inAPPEARANCE from Typical Factory Production."

[Michael J.]

Re: 1969 ZL-1 convertible

Yes, I was thinking they could not do that. But you wonder why the auction company would lie about this for any reason except to deceive a buyer.