65 Power Steering option

[Ronald L.]

Re: 65 Power Steering option

My order for a 1965 396 coupe was placed in April of '65. Power steering not available as per the sales manager at the dealership where I worked
My view has been these many years that, and continues today, that the P/S option was not available on the L-78 engine. My P & A catalog of August 1965 does not list any of the components necessary for a 396 P/S installation. A year later, ( August 66 ) the components are listed for the 1965 -66 396 / 427 engine option matching the part numbers as listed in the '65 Assembly Manual. These may have been listed in an earlier printing of the '66 P & A, most likely at the beginning of the '66 production year. When was the N40 P/S option released ? My guess is with the start of the 1966 Corvette production year. My view is not in agreement with the '65 Judging Guide.
Ray

Ray
Im on same page
This wasnt an option for big block

The JG was written for interests
Not by independent engineers close to the process. 1966 JG is filled with similar stuff that was wrong in the 70s and we all knew it was wrong -back then.


20 units build - pre production prove out
Or late model 65 prove out in preparation for 66

Thats exactly how we build model year and option transitions to this day in high volume asy plants

The N40 66 AIM has April 23 Drawing release and AIM release May 11, 1965

Again this is for L72 L36

Need to stay on those pages unless they say same as which they do not


Jack,

Chevrolet Central Office wasnt giving this away for free-never

No up chaining anything

Thanks for pointing out the window sticker forgeries, those like the restamped Holleys after 30 years need even more careful scrutiny.

My neighbor can do the fiber analysis in his forensics lab by the way

Not cheap

However good contractual insurance if you are chasing tank stickers and other documentation

The chemicals to make them old are residuals easily detected
Moreover if the fibers are inconsistent with known paper as I recently wrote, clear case of reprorgery

[Jack M.]

Re: 65 Power Steering option

Ron- Who said Chevy was giving anything away for FREE? I mentioned they CHARGED for the N40 option (with whatever engine), and the price was already listed in the 1965 price schedules.

I'm posting one photo, and more PDF files from 1965 & 1966.
In this initial 1965 AIM photo, we see a date of 2-2, but no specific year given (unlike a similar FULL DATED page from the 1964 N40 AIM):
Power Steering - 1965 CORVETTE ASSEMBLY MANUAL (N40 - 7).jpg

Looking at the 1965 Power Steering AIM page of N40 - 1 (PDF Attachment #1), it notes that Sheet #7 was added on 1-25-65.
Reviewing the 'dates' on all the other 1965 N40 pages (PDF Attachment #2), the two digits seem to reflect 1964 & 1965 on respective sheets.
Therefore, I believe that the 2-2 date in the above image was indeed for February 2, 1965.
(I've also included the full PDF for 1965 & 1966 for UPC N40 - 1... Attachments #3 & #4)

Building 20 test L78 Corvettes specifically with N40 seems a little excessive to me... then again, I'm just a nobody, and wasn't present to know for sure.
You can write them all off as non-ordered vehicles, but I'd like a little more proof.

When I mentioned going 'up the ladder', it was simply checking with the Regional Zone for clarification.
For a few quick examples of ordering documentation errors, consider some I can easily recall:
a) In 1963, when Corvette added tinted windows, the documented price for ALL windows was LESS than just the windshield.
I seriously doubt Chevy actually charged LESS for that A01 option... do you feel they implicitly followed that document price?
b) In 1966, some ordering documentation showed F41 with the L36 engine... but I have early paperwork were Zone rejected an order.
c) Also in 1966, some Corvette ordering documentation shows paint code 976 as Marina Blue (instead of Nassau Blue)...
Can people with builds during those few months claim they have a RARE 1966 color?

These are just a couple examples of documentation errors that existed over the years...
And in my opinion (thus far), I believe the lack of ordering docs for L78 & N40 was another simple error.
Your 'proof' that it did not exist is fairly equal to my 'proof' that it did exist... so without better 'proof', we are just rendering an opinion/guess.

[Ray K.]

Re: 65 Power Steering option

Jack,
I appreciate your response and comments. Certainly some degree of validity in what you have offered in terms of support for your opinion. I also checked the date of the drawing and it is as you referenced 2-2 but not the year. Who knows what GM / Chevrolet actually did. No doubt there were errors and discrepancies over the years in the ordering / production process. I had a conversation with Mark Nagy earlier this morning - he says you two know each other well.

The dealership where I worked in San Diego delivered a fair amount of Corvettes. The 396 / L-78 units were limited but believe a total of 6 or perhaps 7 were delivered. Mine was the 4th Corvette such car with 2 more or maybe 3 following later in June or July time frame. I checked out each and every 396 Corvette that came through and none had power steering option. The first one was a black coupe with outside exhaust. It got road tested by many service people and sales people, myself included. There was a road behind the dealer where you could do a burnout and a short hard run. Some very late production cars could ( possibly ?? ) have had the N40 option. However, my opinion rendered will remain as previously stated, not available / produced. If anyone has a original window sticker or a dealer factory invoice to substantiate the N40 option, I think we would both welcome it.

Ray

[Keith B.]

Re: 65 Power Steering option

Does anyone have drawings from Saginaw for the BB PS parts?

[Ronald L.]

Ron- Who said Chevy was giving anything away for FREE? I mentioned they CHARGED for the N40 option (with whatever engine), and the price was already listed in the 1965 price schedules.

I'm posting one photo, and more PDF files from 1965 & 1966.
In this initial 1965 AIM photo, we see a date of 2-2, but no specific year given (unlike a similar FULL DATED page from the 1964 N40 AIM):
[ATTACH=CONFIG]115583[/ATTACH]

Looking at the 1965 Power Steering AIM page of N40 - 1 (PDF Attachment #1), it notes that Sheet #7 was added on 1-25-65.
Reviewing the 'dates' on all the other 1965 N40 pages (PDF Attachment #2), the two digits seem to reflect 1964 & 1965 on respective sheets.
Therefore, I believe that the 2-2 date in the above image was indeed for February 2, 1965.
(I've also included the full PDF for 1965 & 1966 for UPC N40 - 1... Attachments #3 & #4)

Building 20 test L78 Corvettes specifically with N40 seems a little excessive to me... then again, I'm just a nobody, and wasn't present to know for sure.
You can write them all off as non-ordered vehicles, but I'd like a little more proof.

When I mentioned going 'up the ladder', it was simply checking with the Regional Zone for clarification.
For a few quick examples of ordering documentation errors, consider some I can easily recall:
a) In 1963, when Corvette added tinted windows, the documented price for ALL windows was LESS than just the windshield.
I seriously doubt Chevy actually charged LESS for that A01 option... do you feel they implicitly followed that document price?
b) In 1966, some ordering documentation showed F41 with the L36 engine... but I have early paperwork were Zone rejected an order.
c) Also in 1966, some Corvette ordering documentation shows paint code 976 as Marina Blue (instead of Nassau Blue)...
Can people with builds during those few months claim they have a RARE 1966 color?

These are just a couple examples of documentation errors that existed over the years...
And in my opinion (thus far), I believe the lack of ordering docs for L78 & N40 was another simple error.
Your 'proof' that it did not exist is fairly equal to my 'proof' that it did exist... so without better 'proof', we are just rendering an opinion/guess.

Jack
Pre builds back then were limited
Launching cars was my thing, so I do have space to say wait a minute
quality wasnt job1 back then - even in the 80s the pre builds werent done that well and many defects got fixed on the fly, GM was and continues to be plagued with new vehicle acceleration issues, we saw those with the C8

Now modern cars, last 20 years or so, we need a few hundred cars
Calibrations, all sorts of NITSA FMVSS etc

After testing most if they are street legal can be sold as used vehicles

There was a process back then
And to this day there is a process

Most all these forums have the same thing, someone 50 years later with a onesie super rare car

Hardly

Yes to have the definitive answer more documentation required
Some of those kind of details were in the office of one of our members that passed last year

Wonder where those books and prints ended up?

[Joe L.]

Re: 65 Power Steering option

Does anyone have drawings from Saginaw for the BB PS parts?

[Ralph G.]

I believe I have found proof that 1965 Corvettes with the L78 engine were available with the N40 power steering option. I was doing some research on 65 L78 fans and ran across 2008 NCRS tech forum post titled "Correct L78 396/425 Fan". One of the follow-up posts was made on June 5, 2008 by James West (18379). In his post, Jame included pictures from a magazine article about the 1965 Corvette with the L78 engine. The pictures are of a new white 65 Corvette Convertible equipped with the L78 engine and the picture shows the engine has a power steering pump located below the alternator with a belt running from the crank pulley to the P.S. pump pulley and a belt running from the P.S. pump pulley to the alternator. This is the exact configuration show in the 1965 A.I.M. and it is the configuration on my 65 L78 convertible. In his post, James said the article was from the August 1965 issue of Pop Rod magazine; since I had never of this magazine, I did more research and discovered the article is actually from the October 1965 Popular Hot Rodding - Vol.4 no. 10. I am adding a picture of the magazine page, a slightly enhanced picture of the engine showing the power steering and the magazine cover listing the article. I think that this provides proof that the N40 power steering options was definitely available on the 65 Corvette with the L78 engine.

Article on 65 Corvette L78.jpg Pic 65 Corvette L78 w P.S..jpg Popular Hot Rodding Cover.jpg

[Terry M.]

This thread is yet another good example of what makes this TF so great. Awesome discussion and information even for us with non-power steering ‘65s.

[Jack M.]

Ralph- Good eyes... I lost Photoshop with a recent computer crash, so this was the best I could do with some free software. I've enlarged the image, and will likely order the magazine... perhaps I can have a future update.

65vette001b.jpg

[Duke W.]

"This is the exact configuration show in the 1965 A.I.M. and it is the configuration on my 65 L78 convertible. "

- Ralph Goode 37874

Press outfits often get pre-production cars, so the fact that this particular car is equipped with PS doesn't "prove" that it was a RPO. It was probably planned to be an option, but then may have been cancelled prior to the start of production cars for sale to the public. Consider that Chevrolet never offered power steering on high revving mechanical lifter small blocks of the era, likely over concern for PS pump over-speeding, and they likely had the same concern for the high-revving 396. (Peak power rated at 6400 - higher than the peak power rating for any small block, which was 6200 for the 30-30 cam engines.)

Power steering cars had the tie rods placed in the forward steering arm holes for a faster overall ratio, and a "rivet", p/n 3794056, was placed in the rear hole to prevent the tie rod from being installed in that position. This is shown on Sect. N40 Sheet 3.00 of the 1963 AIM, and since this practice continued through at least 1967 is should be is later C2 AIMs.

I doubt if this rivet was ever available through service parts (maybe Joe Lucia can confirm), so if your car has this rivet, I would accept that as very powerful evidence that N-40 was available with L-78, but if it is not present I would accept that as more evidence that N-40 was not available with L-78. Also, the AMA specs dated 02-22-65 for the L-78 indicate that N-40 was NOT available (page 94 or the GM Heritage 1965 Corvette Vehicle Information Kit).

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I want to see that all documentation and visual evidence is given due consideration.

A good case study in last minute changes made before production is the Cosworth Vega, that was released (late) in March, 1975. Initial press info and the sales brochure stated that the Saginaw four-speed would have shorter 1-3 ratios than the version used in the regular Vega 140 CID engine, but they ended up being the same. Also, all of the above stated that the Cosworth Vega would have a 16:1 steering gear, but last minute "management direction" directed the use of the same 22.5:1 steering gear ratio as the standard Vega because the geezers thought it was "too heavy". (The Cosworth Vega used a larger, stronger steering gear than the regular Vega that was shared with the H-specials.) Apparently a number of these 16:1 steering gears had already been manufactured, and they showed up in the The Chevrolet Power Manuals of the era. I managed to buy and install one. It was NOT too heavy for me!

Duke

[Jack M.]

Press outfits often get pre-production cars, so the fact that this particular car is equipped with PS doesn't "prove" that it was a RPO.

This is why I want to order the magazine... I can't tell if the plates are MANUFACTURER (Press Car), or if they are DEALER plates (borrowed for the the story). Then again, neither will confirm anything... but kool observations.

And don't forget, by this time, the 1966 427 options were near ready... which had NO exclusion for N40. So if they had the power steering all sorted out, why not add it at the end of 1965 production?

[Joe L.]

"This is the exact configuration show in the 1965 A.I.M. and it is the configuration on my 65 L78 convertible. "

- Ralph Goode 37874

Press outfits often get pre-production cars, so the fact that this particular car is equipped with PS doesn't "prove" that it was a RPO. It was probably planned to be an option, but then may have been cancelled prior to the start of production cars for sale to the public. Consider that Chevrolet never offered power steering on high revving mechanical lifter small blocks of the era, likely over concern for PS pump over-speeding, and they likely had the same concern for the high-revving 396. (Peak power rated at 6400 - higher than the peak power rating for any small block, which was 6200 for the 30-30 cam engines.)

Power steering cars had the tie rods placed in the forward steering arm holes for a faster overall ratio, and a "rivet", p/n 3794056, was placed in the rear hole to prevent the tie rod from being installed in that position. This is shown on Sect. N40 Sheet 3.00 of the 1963 AIM, and since this practice continued through at least 1967 is should be is later C2 AIMs.

I doubt if this rivet was ever available through service parts (maybe Joe Lucia can confirm), so if your car has this rivet, I would accept that as very powerful evidence that N-40 was available with L-78, but if it is not present I would accept that as more evidence that N-40 was not available with L-78. Also, the AMA specs dated 02-22-65 for the L-78 indicate that N-40 was NOT available (page 94 or the GM Heritage 1965 Corvette Vehicle Information Kit).

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I want to see that all documentation and visual evidence is given due consideration.

A good case study in last minute changes made before production is the Cosworth Vega, that was released (late) in March, 1975. Initial press info and the sales brochure stated that the Saginaw four-speed would have shorter 1-3 ratios than the version used in the regular Vega 140 CID engine, but they ended up being the same. Also, all of the above stated that the Cosworth Vega would have a 16:1 steering gear, but last minute "management direction" directed the use of the same 22.5:1 steering gear ratio as the standard Vega because the geezers thought it was "too heavy". (The Cosworth Vega used a larger, stronger steering gear than the regular Vega that was shared with the H-specials.) Apparently a number of these 16:1 steering gears had already been manufactured, and they showed up in the The Chevrolet Power Manuals of the era. I managed to buy and install one. It was NOT too heavy for me!

Duke

Duke-----


GM #3794056 was once available from GM in SERVICE. However, although released about 1962-63, it was never carried in any GM automotive division P&A Catalog so no GM automotive dealer would have been able to come up with the part number or, likely, have been able to order it. My guess is that it was probably catalogued in some non-automotive division (e.g. Electromotive, Allison, etc.). It was discontinued without supercession in 1988.

However, I do think that the presence or absence of this rivet in the steering arm would be a very accurate way to determine if a car was an original power steering car, or not. At least, until now as I believe the rivet is available in reproduction so that folks, now in the know, could make a non original power steering car now appear an "authentic original".

I believe that some 1965 L-78 Corvettes could have been converted to power steering early-on when owners, having selected the L-78 because it was the most powerful, soon tired of the steering effort. Of course, conversions, even performed by GM dealers, would not have included the rivet in the steering arm.