Crossed flags or Top Flight

[Bob B.]

How hard is the judging for a Crossed Flags award ? I have a 95 ZR-1 serial #3, scored a 99 plus at the Palm Springs National in '21 pretty nice car, absolute original. Is this a car that would be reasonable for the Crossed Flag award at French Lick ?
Or should I stay with my Top Flight and call it a day Is this enough of a SPECIAL INTEREST car to qualify, what about a plain 94 Convertible 7,000 mile original car. ?
THANKS

[Brian M.]

Re: Crossed flags or Top Flight

You need to achieve a Mark of Excellence award first. So you need a PV and then a Flight Judging with a 97+ at a National and then you could go for Crossed Flags. There is time to do the MoE in 2023 in French Lick. Then Crossed Flags in Hampton in 2024.
Go for it!

[Bob B.]

Re: Crossed flags or Top Flight

THANK YOU, that makes more sense. I need to read more than I did --- In the Judging reference guide I read page 45 section 9 .1 star and Bowtie award description. I DID NOT yet read page 51 section 10 1. further explaining Crossed Flags. I had read it years ago,
but you know how that goes. ZR-1 retired 94 Convertible 7,000 mile next toward Top Flight
Bob So Cal summer- BobTN #967

[Michael J.]

Re: Crossed flags or Top Flight

Interesting, so unlike a Bowtie, where you don't have to have a Duntov to get it, you need a McClellan or Hill Award to get a Crossed Flags, which is the equivalent of a Bowtie for newer cars for preservation excellence.

[Bob B.]

Re: Crossed flags or Top Flight

quote Judging reference manual page 51 " Only at national convention, WHICH HAVE ACHIVED MARK OF EXCELLENCE AWARD
HISTORICALLY AND EDUCATIONALLY SIGNIFICANT IN ALL FOUR AREAS-" who decides what that means ?? section 10 paragraph 1
judged and VOTED on...
and read BOTH page 45 and 51 ie this is a bun buster to do

[Michael J.]

Re: Crossed flags or Top Flight

Thanks Dave, very informative to me since I have never owned or judged a C4, I had no idea of these significant differences between CF and 4 Star Bowtie. I know I may regret this, but I do wonder why these differences exist. For the 4 Star Bowtie Preservation Excellence Award, the car does not even have to take the Ops section of judging, and can (and some are) pushed into the event. It is solely about one topic, preservation and thus originality. The Duntov for these age cars is called a restoration and preservation excellence award, where restored and reproduction parts that appear TFP are fine, it doesn't matter if they have been removed, repaired, repainted, etc. Not so in the 4 Star Bowtie, solely preservation. So why not have the equivalent in CF for a C4, C5, or now C6? I guess they are just too new for that?

[Michael J.]

Re: Crossed flags or Top Flight

Yes, I see your points here. From my perspective, having a distinct and definite separation between the restoration and preservation excellence awards for C1-C3 allowed more people to get involved in one or the other since they didn't have to do both, though some do. For me, going for a Duntov on a C2 and then a 4 star Bowtie on a C3 allowed me to get more projects going and attend more regional and national meets with different cars and extend my knowledge. I had just seen a 45 mile C4 ZR1 for sale, and thought about maybe doing a CF, but if I also have to do the McLellan I think I will pass. I do think you would get more participation if the awards are separated, like the Duntov and 4 Star Bowtie are, IMO.

[Ed N.]

Re: Crossed flags or Top Flight

How hard is the judging for a Crossed Flags award ? I have a 95 ZR-1 serial #3, scored a 99 plus at the Palm Springs National in '21 pretty nice car, absolute original. Is this a car that would be reasonable for the Crossed Flag award at French Lick ?
Or should I stay with my Top Flight and call it a day Is this enough of a SPECIAL INTEREST car to qualify, what about a plain 94 Convertible 7,000 mile original car. ?
THANKS

Mr. Perry gave you a great explanation, but you can always contact Tom Barr who is the C4 team leader and s always eager to help.

[Brian D.]

Re: Crossed flags or Top Flight

"I can't answer to the reasoning behind the requirement for CF to begin with a Mark of Excellence Award car as that was before my involvement with C4."

"I had just seen a 45 mile C4 ZR1 for sale, and thought about maybe doing a CF, but if I also have to do the McLellan I think I will pass. I do think you would get more participation if the awards are separated, like the Duntov and 4 Star Bowtie are, IMO."

Dave and Mike,
I believe there's an additional reason that C4 and up don't have a separate Bowtie "equivalent".
As I recall, the theory was that newer cars were being bought and purposely put away more often than the earlier cars had been.
This could lead to owners simply pulling low-mile cars out of storage and basically getting a rubber stamp of award.
Yes, some C3 and earlier were intentionally stored from purchase, but not with the same frequency.
I think you'll find a Restorer column from back when Roy Sinor was JC, which explains this theory better than I'm able.
Perhaps Roy and/or Dave Brigham would elaborate on this thread as well?