Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

[John D.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

Hi Tim, I really like your question. I had my share of new Corvettes back in the day. NONE of them would have passed ops. Zero.
But I/we loved them just the same. My Dad used to make fun of my cars. Said they cost more than his new Caddy but they were a POC.

His words not mine. John

[Edward J.]

[Bob R.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

A good friend of mine purchased a new Pontiac LeMans in 1969 and the car was delivered with Pontiac misspelled on the rear of the car. PONITAC

[Eric P.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

Tim's post is a very important question..."Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?". I feel the answer is maybe...maybe not...or even probably not? My question and subsequent post was not to steal the intent and reason for Tim's post.

Terry answered the obvious question, if you want to pass OPS Check on this item (windshield washers) or a PV, then fix it. We all know that kink could have came about before, at or after assembly, and\or even at dealer prep, or even by an owner, but no one knows for sure. So what is the answer to Tim's question, or the one I raised?

I believe the answer to Tim's question lies above in the many posts from other owners including Terry's, and that answer is either maybe or probably not. We can all understand and most likely agree to the intent of the NCRS. There are way too many "what if's" to consider. I feel certain the Judging manuals clearly state the judging standard(s). So the answer is fix it if you want the OPS points or a successful PV. But let's not forget it! If I were a new or even an old non-active member and lets say I owned an original '71 car like Tim's. I decide to finally bring it to an NCRS meet to have it judged for the first time (trust me we have members like this). I lose points for the windshield washer not functioning properly at OP'S check. I then say respectfully; "hey I am the original owner and that windshield washer hasn't worked since I picked up the car new from the dealer, it is the way the factory built it". Don't we want to know that? There are judging manuals that show pages of Technical Service Bulletins in the back for reference. Why would we do this, and then not answer this question, or a question the '75-'77 TIJM Revision Team has raised recently about owners of original cars removing paint from C3 engine stamp pads for points? I believe the NCRS was and should continue to be a membership that embraces learning new things about Corvettes and how these cars were built. We should realize this example may not be, and probably is not the only C3 built with a kinked washer hose. And to that end; as we have always been told; we should give the benefit of doubt to the owner if and when it happens. There has been a lot of tribal knowledge learned and shared inside the NCRS community for a long time. Please remember we haven't seen it all yet. Let's continue to share and learn from these things with the new and new to judging members when they bring their Corvettes to a meet to be judged. Put it in the manual, tell the Team Leaders, and hope these things promote a more positive experience for the less-informed who want to be a part of the best "Corvette Club" in the world. Not all of them read these posts. Dave Brigham often says " Remember, we are all a part of the same club!".

I also like Tim's question, and Thank him for bringing this up. He knows what to do, and most likely did it. The question that remains is; what do we all learn from this?

Eric Patty
NCRS #8355

[Tim S.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

Through the years, I have had a few cars where the OO saved every piece of paperwork ever associated with the car......including warranty repair work. I have been shocked how many times these cars seemed to be in for warranty work.

I'm taken back how lousy these cars could be when new.
Tim

[Edward J.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

[QUOTE=Tim Schuetz (17356);901538]Through the years, I have had a few cars where the OO saved every piece of paperwork ever associated with the car......including warranty repair work. I have been shocked how many times these cars seemed to be in for warranty work.



Tim,
This Era of any cars or truck built have a lot to be desired as far as Quality control, dealerships had no problem keeping 15 to 20 Mechanics busy: and bigger dealers the same, and back then don’t forget the body shops.paint quality was just as bad.

[Frank D.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

I distinctly remember my 67 Camaro having a lifter collapse at around 30,000 miles and the dealer fixed it under warrantly.
IIRC the warranties back then were 5 years or 60,000 miles but I could be wrong.

[Chris H.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

When I was getting my '69 ready for Ops judging, I couldn't figure out why the wiper arm squirters weren't working. Turns out St Louis had routed the hose from the reservoir behind the heater hoses, against the firewall. The hose was pinched. I decided to leave it there, for educational purposes, and run a "cheater" temporary hose and the squirters worked great for judging.

[Mark F.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

Interesting string!

Forgive the obvious here, but assembling any car or truck and all their subcomponents is a complicated process...I was always amazed at how well it worked most of the time

FWIW, nasty things (NTFP) did happen in assembly plants; some of which I witnessed - others I heard about from my colleagues:

• Cars got wrecked before they got out of the plant (some were true "accidents"; others were workers "hot-doggin' in "drive-off" and "drive-out" areas - there were not a lot of these incidents, but they did happen...and they were fixed
• Paint defects that unfortunately didn't show up until after the car had been fully trimmed out and then was repainted (in full trim)
• Conveyor failures that stranded freshly-painted bodies in ovens longer than they should have been
• Overhead leaking POL equipment dripping on bodies prior to painting that required special (atypical) attention to remove while the line was still running
• etc....

And one thing I have learned from this string is that the Dealer's mechanics may have had more to do (and fix) upon receipt than I ever thought. In a way, maybe that was a good thing? Second sets of eyes looking at what should be right the first time?

Anyhow, we all want the car we buy to be perfect - but, all of them weren't...it's the nature of the beast.

[Michael G.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

Having spent many a day in GM plants, one thing is clear to me: anything can go wrong and often does. I have horror stories about paint, body work, and many, many more about assembly faux pas (solving those was my part of my job). After all this experience, I will tell you that I find it absurdly laughable that our NCRS standard assumes the car arrived at the dealer from the plant in our judged “ideal” as built condition. Especially paint, it varied all over the map, every day, every shift. Trying to match fastener head markings is a joke, (and I am a supposed ‘expert’) the plant did what they had to do, including buying from non-authorized hardware suppliers. In the 60s, if it got out the door under its own power, without any union grievances, all was good.

Part of my participating in NCRS is my early understanding those “ideals” were never met on every piece of every car, that you’re probably going to see things, “original” things, on your car that don’t match the “book”, things that quite possibly were not reflected in an assembly manual or parts list. I just “fix” them, its not worth the argument.

[Bill M.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

Here is a list of issues my father took to the dealer regarding his brand new '59 fuelie:

IMG_0464.jpg

Did they all get fixed? Nope. Would it pass PV? Maybe...

By the way, the car did have a posi. It had the very early design with no pre-load on the posi discs.

[Mark H.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

If you've got a copy in your archives, Rev. Mike Ernst wrote an article in Vol. 19 #2/Fall 1992 issue of the Restorer, "The Case For Under-restoration". Does a good job covering this topic.

[Tim G.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

I won't even get into the engine stamp on this car, I'll save that for the judges entertainment. When I saw the pad, I knew I had to have this car.

[E S.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

Terry-I ordered my 69,and the only issue I have ever had with the car is the ammeter has always registered -10. Been that way since the day I took delivery. Oh- also the headlight switch bezel has come loose. I was not about to have the dealer address either issue,-Too many chances for things to go south-was my thought. (door dings,scratches on door sills and door panels by careless mechanics-etc.) I had the car judged at Bloom. in the early 80's, and I assume it passed their "PV" test, as it was gold certified. That was a long time ago,and I know I did not use the windshield wipers/washers, because I have never used them- not wanting to drag those blades across a potentially dry windshield!
By the way- This post caused me to function test my wiper and headlight override switches, and they both performed exactly as described in the O.M. (Last time these were used was in the early 80's)
E.J.

[Terry M.]

Re: Could a 1960's or 1970's Corvette pass operations or PV when new?

Terry-I ordered my 69,and the only issue I have ever had with the car is the ammeter has always registered -10. Been that way since the day I took delivery. Oh- also the headlight switch bezel has come loose. I was not about to have the dealer address either issue,-Too many chances for things to go south-was my thought. (door dings,scratches on door sills and door panels by careless mechanics-etc.) I had the car judged at Bloom. in the early 80's, and I assume it passed their "PV" test, as it was gold certified. That was a long time ago,and I know I did not use the windshield wipers/washers, because I have never used them- not wanting to drag those blades across a potentially dry windshield!
By the way- This post caused me to function test my wiper and headlight override switches, and they both performed exactly as described in the O.M. (Last time these were used was in the early 80's)
E.J.

EJ
Bloomington Gold does not do a "PV" Their Operations test is not unlike NCRS's Operations test; both of which are a long way from the PV requirements. Even their "Road Test" is simply a matter of getting the car back to the starting point intact.

I share your angst about returning to the dealer for any work. I even dislike taking any of my cars for work I can't do myself, but unfortunately I am in the position of knowing what to do but being unable to do it.

BTW: My 1969 wipers worked fine until the body flexed as I was going over the Railroad tracks.

The original standard for PV was any defect that would cause the original owner to take the car back to the dealer was a fail. The PV program has turned into a witch hunt for perceived defects. In some cases it has become the bulwark for "I got mine & you won't get yours." Just my two cents. I have my supply of popcorn in hand now.