Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

[Edward M.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

Race cars seldom carry a VIN tag. Do we know for sure that the steering column and VIN tag that is on the car now was actually on the car when it was raced at Le Mans? I am not questioning the authenticity of the car or the VIN, just asking if the "race car" has the VIN tags on them when they were raced in France.

I recall that the 1962 Le Mans race car did not have a VIN tag on it.

Were the steering columns changed in the 1960 race cars for any reason? Was the VIN tag removed from the steering column in the race car?

Just asking...

[Richard M.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

Race cars seldom carry a VIN tag. Do we know for sure that the steering column and VIN tag that is on the car now was actually on the car when it was raced at Le Mans? I am not questioning the authenticity of the car or the VIN, just asking if the "race car" has the VIN tags on them when they were raced in France.

I recall that the 1962 Le Mans race car did not have a VIN tag on it.

Were the steering columns changed in the 1960 race cars for any reason? Was the VIN tag removed from the steering column in the race car?

Just asking...

Edward,

Those are great questions, albeit rhetorical IMO as only those there then and now can answer them.

However, I'd have to opine here that the answers could be as follows....

The 3 cars were not factory race cars. They were purchased by Briggs Cunningham as any customer would, therefore they had vins. He then modified them for race work.

I doubt that the columns were changed. I also doubt that the spot welded vin tag was changed on this car.

Because all 3 Cunningham cars would be brought back to stock after the race for resale purposes, they required vin tags for transfer of title.

When Lance found the car, he saw the column vin, verified frame vin matched, then found the hidden features identifying its race identity. They probably first thought it was a Zagato car. But then figured out it was the real #1 LeMans car, simply hidden under blankets of bondo.

Rich

[Loren L.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

All 4 of the '60 cars and the '62 car had their original VIN tags at the the time of the initial entry papers, the time of approval and on the DAY OF PHYSICAL TECHNICAL INSPECTION ON THE LINE AT LE MANS. The '62 was later involved in a front-end accident (New Mexico?) but was able to be identified by frame stampings. ALL FIVE OF THESE CARS POSSESS THEIR ORIGINAL LE MANS TECH INSPECTION PAPERS, DIRECT FROM AUTOMOBILE DE LA QUEST IN LE MANS.

If they were not "factory race cars" they are the first ones I am aware of that can display 3 3" ring binders filled with factory work orders, including an 4/29/60 engine change, followed by a removal of such parts and a refurbishment with the engines originally built with so that they could be sold in Florida.. The Zagato reference likely began with the purchaser from Cunningham.

But then, I suppose it can be argued that the Grand Sports had no factory connection either.................

[Richard M.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

Loren, Thank you for your clarification. I went to that site but could not find anything.

The Zagato reference came from 12 years ago regarding X53L. Here

I copied the web transcript from a reference within that thread as the link disappeared. Here

Another link for reference re #1 Here.

I still think Kevin should still be the true owner of this car. IMO, he was scammed by a person of greed 7 years ago and the courts sided with a owner of a piece of paper that had no merit.

That same persons "lead" scammer has done well over the years. But not once. He also tried to do the same thing related to another famous 55/56 race car about 5 years ago. Kevin and the restorer and I, along with the owner of that car were able to quietly and legally squash that attempt before it happened. We got the Florida DMV Fraudulent Title Dept involved and they were instrumental in their investigation to stop the same type of scam and attempted extortion. I wrote a historical account of the entire event for my records.

Also more attempted scams I've experience regarding a friends car that ha a counterfitted twin in another country. Guess who was involved in that one too!

And another friends '59 Corvette whose vin number was used to title a '53 Chevy over 25 years ago, while his car was in pieces since he took it apart in the 70's. Now in Florida, his car completely restored, went to get a FL Title using his Texas title dated 196x...refused. Was told that vin resides in Utah. Nightmare, but finally got it resolved.

I may write a book since all my cars are going away soon. No names, just the stories. It would be appropriate for #2 only bathroom reading. lol

Rich

[Michael G.]

[Jaime G.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

Michael, you will be waiting a long time to find how these scams are perpetrated. Too much liability involved in discussing crime.
The people involved in this scam are well known in the hobby.

[Richard M.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

Jamie,

You are correct. But when someone gets scammed, and finds out later that somebody else could have warned them, it is very unfortunate.

This is somewhat off main topic, but relative to what happened to Kevin's car. The perpetrator acted fast.

The MO of this particular person was such that he knew the people he scammed. He befriends them, then later on as a "buddy", sets up the sting.

This is all public information. One case in Texas. The victim had been on the hunt for a particular Corvette. The scammer called and told him he found the perfect car, and needed $xxxk asap to get it. The victim sent him the money, but....

The car never existed.

Courts years later ruled the Defendant guilty, ordered to pay restitution, scammer went to jail for a while, released so he could pay back a bit monthly, had no money because was all used up or hidden.

Many years go by. TX Plaintiff legal fees in the scores of thousands. Still no full compensation.

Scammer gets a guy to go in with him on another car, Kevins #1 car. Tells guy he can make lots of money. A Title is now made up in his name, shows up in Lance's driveway with the cops.

Scammers associate guy gets bought out by the scammer, gets his reward scott free. All planned by the scammer.

So the scammer now gets bought out by a money partner. Goes away with a boatload. That guy now owns 2/3 of #1. Courts rule car must be auctioned to use proceeds to compensate TX victim, now with interest to the tune of around 4xxk. Lawyer gets 100k off the top. Auction commission about 125k total. TX man gets his share.

2/3 owner get 0, Kevin gets 0.

Scammer WINS! He got out early just in time!

Scammer associate WINS! He got out early just in time!

Lawyer WINS! (A Given)

Scammer likely on a Island in the Caribbean sipping on Rum Punch saying to himself "I Did It! Ya Baby!"

Rich

[Patrick B.]

[Richard M.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

“A title is now made up in his name ...”. You mean this very public legal case was based on a phony title, and that fact was never explored in court?

You can interpret what I said as either legal, or otherwise.

Someone "made" a Title. This means someone did work typing on a computer, based on information from another's input.

It's obvious to me that the "possibility" exists that some people may not do things the way that is proper. That it is possible to do a Title request with a undermining intent. Possible? Maybe. I have my opinion how it was done, but I won't express my opinion.

Rich

[Patrick B.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

I did not mean to question the story. It is very bold of a criminal to scam using a fraudulent title in such a high profile case and not get caught.

[Richard M.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

I did not mean to question the story. It is very bold of a criminal to scam using a fraudulent title in such a high profile case and not get caught.

Patrick,

Yes I understood your question. It may have been fabricated. Maybe it was real. THe strange thing is this. If the car was out of State, Florida requires a Vin Verification of the actual vehicle, signed by a Law Officer, or DMV Agent, or a Notary Public. Hmmmmm.

How did the DMV authorize and be certain the data they received was valid? How does a State, any State, verify that?

Only those directly involved know how the Documents get created.

I'd imagine the lawyers could not prove one way or the other if the Title was valid or not. How would one prove that? I have no idea? Maybe that's why it was not brought up in the case. Maybe it's a situation where the legal system assumes that a Florida Title is a Official Document and is 100% valid, no matter what possibility exists in its creation. Maybe that's what the scammers do. They may know about loopholes in the law and find ways to work around them for their monetary gain, no matter how long it takes and at what cost.

That similar case of that C1 race car I mentioned was a example of another unusual Title. This time we knew it was fabricated. We had all of the evidence. A package of this evidence and supporting data was sent directly to Tallahassee. No Lawyers, No Courts, No Judges, No Plaintiffs(scammers), No Defendants(victims). It got stopped before it went any further. The Title was revoked and voided.

Rich

[Loren L.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

Post #18 was written to reassure everyone that the 4 '60 and 1 '62 LM cars referred to were solidly referenced as such within the technical recprd annals of Le Mans.

Subsequent postures/references/inferences being made can be taken in a way that is most disturbing, perhaps requiring review of the Chief Auction Office of Florida, if there is one, or perhaps the Florida Attorney General. Has Sotheby's really left the trail that muddy or is all of this mis-information?

[Richard M.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

Post #18 was written to reassure everyone that the 4 '60 and 1 '62 LM cars referred to were solidly referenced as such within the technical recprd annals of Le Mans.

Subsequent postures/references/inferences being made can be taken in a way that is most disturbing, perhaps requiring review of the Chief Auction Office of Florida, if there is one, or perhaps the Florida Attorney General. Has Sotheby's really left the trail that muddy or is all of this mis-information?

Loren,

I'm not understanding how the RM Sotheby Auction Company representing the Court order sale of the LeMans car could be involved in any disturbance related to any of the comments, thoughts or opinions of any previous posts herein, those of mine or any others.

If anything, the original court case evidence of ownership supported by a Replacement/Lost Title process might be the area of concern. My previous opinionated comments of this Title are possible scenarios. We may never know the truth with respect to that creation.

Please feel free to contact me directly, in type(PM/Email) or live phone, to relinquish any unsure thoughts you may have regarding any misinformation that may be of concern, if commented or directly connected to mine.

I would be willing to share any of my transcripts and historical notes with you, with the only request that they be kept confidential and not individually or publically distributed in digital or any other form.

I am also willing to share with you a portion of the counterfeited car in another country "story" and technical evidence I researched and provided to assist the owner and his legal counsel related to his proactive litigation and actions. I was not involved in his case directly as he had to keep all of his activity confidential. The NCRS judging process triggered a investigation initiated by the owner of the real, documented, independently authenticated Corvette.

Quite honestly, I feel uncomfortable that I cannot share all of the details of the perpetrators and victims. Especially when several of the first mentioned are still at large, and even one still involved in our advertising media.

For the record, my personal intentions for all is to protect their personal situations regarding any possible interaction with the ilicit activities of any past, present, or future persons or entities related to their Corvettes or other valued personal property.

I'm simply trying to help people to avoid mistakes and to be careful and aware. There is one particular individual of concern, and most likely others to arrive knowing the MO of the that successful perpetrator.

We all are susceptible to bad situations. We need to work together and share our thoughts and concerns to protect each other. I'm carefully trying to do that here.

Rich

[Loren L.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

Rich, your response is so off topic from where my mind was going as to make post #27 redundant. My efforts in the future will be to help make sure that the # of straight axle Le Mans Corvettes from the era remains at 5.

[Richard M.]

Re: Last discovered Cunningham LeMans Corvette sells at Amelia Island....

Rich, your response is so off topic from where my mind was going as to make post #27 redundant. My efforts in the future will be to help make sure that the # of straight axle Le Mans Corvettes from the era remains at 5.

Loren its hard to answer riddle queries sometime. Apologies.

I'm done here, please take over.

Rich
PS ....et al....
If anyone wants more details contact me directly via our Email system.(PMs do not support attachments).