judging added features

[David H.]

Re: judging added features

This question resulted from an impromptu judging school. We were doing an early C3 (chrome bumper) but it might apply to other years. .....

Treat situation like Standard Deduction Guideline #9, Added or Deleted Options. Items "... subject to a full deduction on Originality and Condition". Deduct 4 and 4 Originality and Condition for added sway bar.

Dave

[Terry M.]

Re: judging added features

This may or my not have been discussed at the NJC and his team leaders at their first meeting of the year. In any case I would look for guidance from the decisions made by them.

Harry
To the best of my recollection this issue was not discussed at any Team Leader's Meeting, but my memory is not what it once was.

I am pleased to see so many varied and well thought out responses. These are running along the same lines of the discussion among the several of us yesterday, but of course we had a much more private setting.

My thanks to all of you for your efforts so far. I think I will give this a little more time before I offer my opinion and then ask the Team Leaders and/or National Judging Chair to offer the answer.

[Russ S.]

Re: judging added features

Ditto My thoughts exactly.

I will say a zero (0) deduction. IF the parts did not drill, cut or disturb any part of the rear suspension or frame that it is attached to.

What is different about this as compared to a dealer installed option. I have a dealer installed luggage rack on my '65. The item itself warrants no deduction, but the missing paint and fiberglass in the body section will take a small deduction.

So say this is a dealer installed rear sway bar.

James West

[Terry M.]

Re: judging added features

Standard Deduction Guideline #9, Added or Deleted Options. Items "... subject to a full deduction on Originality and Condition". Deduct 4 and 4 Originality and Condition for added sway bar.

Dave

Well researched Dave, but does it matter that the rear sway bar is NOT an authorized Chevrolet Option? It is part of the Big Block instillation, just like heaver front springs.

[David H.]

Re: judging added features

Well researched Dave, but does it matter that the rear sway bar is NOT an authorized Chevrolet Option? It is part of the Big Block instillation, just like heaver front springs.

Terry,

Agree, it is NOT and option, however, "treat" it like it was.

If you don't like that, how about Standard Deduction #13, "... significantly dissimilar as installed ...". Original installation of sway bar is " NOT THERE". Now that sway bar is there, that becomes "significantly dissimilar". Same 100% result.

Interesting situation, does not have good fit anywhere.

Dave

[Richard M.]

Re: judging added features

Ditto My thoughts exactly.

Ditto Ditto = Russ = James

Et al..... IMO, You/We as judges cannot prove that the car did not have it installed at the factory. There are dozens of scenarios possible. Maybe it was a Central Office build for one of the executives and he wanted it. Maybe the Dealer had a buddy at the Order Dept and it was slipped in on a napkin note. Who Knows?

If it was a shiny gloss black aftermarket bar from Ecklers, deduct away.

Since it's evident patina matches the rest of the car I opine no deduct. If you want to hit it for something, maybe a dot for having 4 TA holes filled with metal instead of air.

I would side with the owner on this one.

Rich
PS For example, go to this post for the official GM drawing of the 1955 Corvette V8 Chassis. There it shows something that was "unavailable" in 1955 right on the print. If these "features" were on a '55 you were judging and you gave a full deduct for them, then he pulls this print out of his pocket, how would you handle it?

[Edward J.]

Re: judging added features

Terry and others, understanding that these parts where never suppose to be installed at St Louis on a small block car. assembly line workers where prone to mistakes (were human) my say is we as judges have to have a open mind. Here’s another car in question for those of you,In 2019 at our regional in New England we had a small block car (14k miles)with a big block hood (ya I know), it was deemed by the judges to left the factory, it had no chrome trim or holes drilled, red lacquer paint,very aged (as the rest of car),inside black out line was typical of St Louis, factory weatherstrip on hood, hinges and bolt appeared never touched. Terry you may have been a part of the thought process for judges, but not sure?

[Gary B.]

Re: judging added features

How do we differentiate, or in today's times, should I say descriminate from one added part to another. Why is it ok for a luggage rack to be added but not a sway bar. Why is ok for an exterior RH side mirror to be added but not a sway bar.

To add a luggage rack or mirror, damage is done to the body, holes are drilled. A sway bar, the holes are already there, so no damage is done.

If we do a full deduct for a sway bar being added, why not be consistant for all the other added on assessories?

Inquiring minds need to know?

Gary Bosselman

[Harry S.]

Re: judging added features

How do we differentiate, or in today's times, should I say descriminate from one added part to another. Why is it ok for a luggage rack to be added but not a sway bar. Why is ok for an exterior RH side mirror to be added but not a sway bar.

To add a luggage rack or mirror, damage is done to the body, holes are drilled. A sway bar, the holes are already there, so no damage is done.

If we do a full deduct for a sway bar being added, why not be consistant for all the other added on assessories?

Inquiring minds need to know?

Gary Bosselman

Gary, that is why I described the side pipes the way I did. When I determine the car was not born with pipes, I mentally make them disappear and look for what should have been there and any damage done to install the pipes.

I'm in the zero-deduct column on Terry's question.

[Dave S.]

Re: judging added features

How do we differentiate, or in today's times, should I say descriminate from one added part to another. Why is it ok for a luggage rack to be added but not a sway bar. Why is ok for an exterior RH side mirror to be added but not a sway bar.

To add a luggage rack or mirror, damage is done to the body, holes are drilled. A sway bar, the holes are already there, so no damage is done.

If we do a full deduct for a sway bar being added, why not be consistant for all the other added on assessories?

Inquiring minds need to know?

Gary Bosselman

[Patrick B.]

[Terry M.]

Re: judging added features

Terry,

Agree, it is NOT and option, however, "treat" it like it was.

If you don't like that, how about Standard Deduction #13, "... significantly dissimilar as installed ...". Original installation of sway bar is " NOT THERE". Now that sway bar is there, that becomes "significantly dissimilar". Same 100% result.

Interesting situation, does not have good fit anywhere.

Dave

It is not a matter of what I like. I am just trying to stimulate discussion. Again I thank you for going to our manuals and not just "shooting from the hip."

[Terry M.]

Re: judging added features

I don't remember participating in that discussion (you know the old memory thing.), but that is another good example.

[Don H.]

Re: judging added features

Ditto Ditto = Russ = James

Et al..... IMO, You/We as judges cannot prove that the car did not have it installed at the factory. There are dozens of scenarios possible. Maybe it was a Central Office build for one of the executives and he wanted it. Maybe the Dealer had a buddy at the Order Dept and it was slipped in on a napkin note. Who Knows?

If it was a shiny gloss black aftermarket bar from Ecklers, deduct away.

Since it's evident patina matches the rest of the car I opine no deduct. If you want to hit it for something, maybe a dot for having 4 TA holes filled with metal instead of air.

I would side with the owner on this one.

Rich
PS For example, go to this post for the official GM drawing of the 1955 Corvette V8 Chassis. There it shows something that was "unavailable" in 1955 right on the print. If these "features" were on a '55 you were judging and you gave a full deduct for them, then he pulls this print out of his pocket, how would you handle it?

Rich

you are not evaluating if the sway bar may be original. You are judging what is typical factory production. On a small block car that bar was not TFP. So, it is an added option (or part of one), or it may be an owner or dealer added accessory such as a luggage rack. If the owner has proof the bar came from the factory that way, that could help you make your call. Otherwise, treat it like an added accessory is my call. No deduct.

[John M.]

Re: judging added features

I have enjoyed reading all the replies. I think they have been well thought out. I would like to add a comment or question to further this discussion along. I appreciated Dave Houlihan researching our Standard Deduction Tables, I agree with Terry, further research is necessary. In reviewing my Standard Deduction Table, dated March 2019, sway bars are not listed. Therefore should the chassis team then refer to our Judging Standard using C.D.C.I.F? In this reply TFP refers to Typical Factory Production. Is this bar configured like a TFP unit? If applicable is the datecomplete? Is this bar installed correctly? Is the finish of this bar consistent with a TFP bar? I will not offer any opinion regarding a point deduction, just curious if C.D.C.I.F. is the next resource a chassis team should refer to before making a determination.