67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help - NCRS Discussion Boards

67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

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  • Dereck S.
    Very Frequent User
    • July 30, 2008
    • 244

    67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

    All
    After 30 years I decided to pull my original 67 427/400 engine over last winter to do a complete rebuild. When I was younger I pushed it a bit. Sent the block out for machine work as well as the original heads. Block bores are now 0.04" over with a calculated compression ratio of around 9.8-10.0. Had the distributor professionally rebuilt with verification to production specs done on a SUN machine. Cam is a new Elgin E-1589S which was recommended by several folks who run it in their hydraulic 427 engines. Sent the heads out to get professionally rebuilt. New guides, valves, seals, and exhaust seats were installed. Leak-down was checked. I sent the intake to McNeish for re-skin. I confirmed all plugs/ports are in place and not leaking. I also examined the casting in great detail for cracks. I re-assembled the engine myself. I broke in the cam as defined in posts listed on this forum. During break-in the engine ran hot. I put 1000 miles on the car as I broke in the new engine build and attempted to tune in run quality. My issue is a miss at steady state low speeds. Idle run quality is not very good. However, it does idle around 800. An off-idle miss is present. Starting is not as good as it used to be. Compression checked cold is between 165-170 psi on all cylinders. I measured engine vacuum at 800 rpm hot to be only 14 psi. I expected it to be in the 18-20 psi range. My vacuum gauge says 14 psi means late ignition timing. I advanced timing and vacuum increased to about 16 psi at max advanced timing. Engine miss is more evident. I retard timing and vacuum drops. I set initial and total timing to factory specs and the engine doesn't like it. I can positively affect the run quality by retarding spark. However, performance is affected and the miss is still present but the car is driveable. I observed extremely white plug electrodes suggesting lean operation. Thinking it was lack of fuel I opened up the idle screws to 2 1/2 turns which helped. I assumed engine operation at steady state below 2000 rpm runs off the idle circuit. Any screw change over that does nothing (no effect on vacuum). I also increased the main jets from 64 to 68 which seemed to help but only at higher speed operation. I've had this car for 34 years and know what good looks like. It's not there. I'm missing something. I believe the issues lies with fuel or spark but can't prove that. New cam has 66 degrees of overlap. It's not a radical cam but it may affect vacuum. Below is a list of what I've done all summer to identify the root of the issue. I started with the easy and logical changes first.

    • I've replaced the distributor rotor, cap, plugs, coil, plug wires all twice with no impact.
    • I replaced the Lectric Limited breakerless system that I've run for 30 years with a new one. I also ran the car briefly with points. Neither change had any impact.
    • I've not evaluated nor replaced the original ignition switch. I didn't think that had any effect. But it remains an open item.
    • I replaced the entire distributor with a friends known good one. No impact.
    • I installed a NOS AC fuel pump I've had for years during the rebuild. I replaced it again after having the issue with a cheap repro with no impact. I'm convinced I have correct fuel pressure and float height.
    • I've rebuilt the 3 carbs twice thinking I made a mistake during the rebuild. The metering plates on both end carbs were warped. I replaced them with correct -3 new plates from Allstate Carb. I replaced the center carb with a friends carb that was known good with no impact. I confirmed float setting via sight plugs. I also replaced the fuel filters twice. No impact.
    • I've run the car at high advanced timing and high retarded timing. Only retarding had a positive impact on the issue. However, retarding the timing increased engine temperature at idle. Advancing timing caused a bad misfire.
    • I went on a hunt for a vacuum leak using propane with no findings. I pulled the intake thinking I had an intake gasket leak since I used a 40 year old NOS gasket set. No impact.
    • While the intake was off I confirmed the cam didn't have any lobe wear issues following break-in. I also confirmed the cam timing chain was not off a tooth.


    Elgin E1589S cam specs:
    Intake lift 0.476" with 214 degree duration
    Exhaust lift 0.496" with 218 degree duration
    66 degree overlap
    Valve train is stock with 1.7 ratio stamped arms

    I need help. Everything I've done to fuel and spark only has a minor impact on the symptoms and doesn't go after the root cause. I'm going back to ground zero with a check list and systematically walking through everything. Unfortunately, here in Wisconsin the snow will be flying soon.
    Last edited by Dereck S.; September 16, 2020, 09:54 AM.
  • Michael H.
    Very Frequent User
    • December 1, 1987
    • 728

    #2
    Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

    Have you tried using higher octane fuel like racing fuel or 100LL avgas ? If you access to a automotive scope that might point to which cylinder is the problem or find a good tune up shop to analyze it.

    Mike

    Comment

    • David H.
      Extremely Frequent Poster
      • June 30, 2001
      • 1526

      #3
      Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

      Dereck

      "During break-in the engine ran hot."

      How much piston ring gap was used"

      Dave
      Judging Chairman Mid-Way USA (Kansas) Chapter

      Comment

      • Dereck S.
        Very Frequent User
        • July 30, 2008
        • 244

        #4
        Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

        I should qualify my statement that "I assembled the engine". I had selected a local engine builder who built up the block for me. He reused my crank and rods. Crank was turned 0.010". He selected the pistons which he typically uses and worked with me on the compression ratio. He selected the cam which he had used before. He had a listing of over 100 427 engines he built previously. I went with him based on his experience. I didn't mean to imply I built up the bottom end. I assembled everything once I got the assembled block and heads back. It doesn't mean he didn't make a mistake. However, at this point I'm assuming I made a mistake. Therefore, I'll leave his company name out of the discussion. Aside from the miss the engine runs very strong. The low idle vacuum is a red flag to me that there is a problem somewhere. Retarding the spark does negatively impact performance.

        Comment

        • Mark E.
          Extremely Frequent Poster
          • April 1, 1993
          • 4540

          #5
          Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

          Is it missing, or just the way that aftermarket cam idles? How different is it from the stock cam?

          I remember Joe Lucia saying the high-lift hydraulic cam in these engines is the best street big block cam Chevy made. I tend to agree. It has great torque, decent top end and a steady idle.

          Vacuum level seems ok; my stock LS5 (a stroked, Q-Jet version of your engine) pulls 14" - 17" at 800 rpm- similar to what you're seeing. Don't expect 18" - 20" (I can't remember any Chevy V8 with that kind of vacuum at idle).
          Mark Edmondson
          Dallas, Texas
          Texas Chapter

          1970 Coupe, Donnybrooke Green, Light Saddle LS5 M20 A31 C60 G81 N37 N40 UA6 U79
          1993 Coupe, 40th Anniversary, 6-speed, PEG 1, FX3, CD, Bronze Top

          Comment

          • Timothy B.
            Extremely Frequent Poster
            • April 30, 1983
            • 5186

            #6
            Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

            Dereck,

            Did you plug the vacuum advance at the carburetor and drive it to see if the miss is any better, is it using ported or manifold vacuum advance? Think about a vacuum leak in the vacuum advance port on the carburetor from a incorrect gasket, did you also replace that metering block.

            Sure sounds like a fuel issue to me, Did you compare all the carburetor gaskets to the old gaskets? Sure sounds like a fuel issue to me, white spark plugs and 2 1/2 turns on the mixture screws suggests that. The secondary carburetors should have a idle circuit and those constant feed holes below the transfer slots.

            Have you verified exact TDC to be sure the marks are correct.

            Comment

            • Owen L.
              Very Frequent User
              • September 30, 1991
              • 868

              #7
              Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

              Just shootin' in the dark because it seems you've already addressed a lot of possibles; could the valves/lifters be mis-adjusted?

              Comment

              • Mike M.
                NCRS Past President
                • May 31, 1974
                • 8383

                #8
                Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

                Originally posted by Timothy Barbieri (6542)
                Dereck,

                Did you plug the vacuum advance at the carburetor and drive it to see if the miss is any better, is it using ported or manifold vacuum advance? Think about a vacuum leak in the vacuum advance port on the carburetor from a incorrect gasket, did you also replace that metering block.

                Sure sounds like a fuel issue to me, Did you compare all the carburetor gaskets to the old gaskets? Sure sounds like a fuel issue to me, white spark plugs and 2 1/2 turns on the mixture screws suggests that. The secondary carburetors should have a idle circuit and those constant feed holes below the transfer slots.

                Have you verified exact TDC to be sure the marks are correct.
                i'm with tim. the harmonic balance may have come loos and slipped. mike

                Comment

                • Duke W.
                  Beyond Control Poster
                  • January 1, 1993
                  • 15670

                  #9
                  Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

                  The duration figures match OE, but what about LSA. The OE cam is 115 degrees and it idles at 600 @ 15". That's 15 inches of Mercury, like how atmospheric pressure is measured, not psi. If you're at 14" @ 800 then the LSA is narrower for a lot more overlap, which is NOT a good idea. The original VAC should be a 360 12, 0@6", 12 @ 12". An exact replacement is not available but the B26 is the same start and 16@12", which is equivalent to the 355 16 that was OE on the '66 427/390.

                  I'm experiencing a similar issue with a friend's '66 427/390. He finally let me take the spark advance map, and what appeared to maybe be the original 355 16 VAC (start @ 6", 16 @ 15"), same as the B26, started at 15 and was all in at 22. For practical purposes it was dead. He had a new B26 - same specs - so we installed it. Then I found that the centrifugal provides only 20 degrees max advance. The OE spec is 30, and your engine is 32. So I advanced the initial timing from 4 to 10, and it "trailer-hitched" at low speed light load. Apparently these big blocks don't like as much advance at low speed, light load as small blocks.

                  So what you need to do is take the spark advance map and compare to OE spec in your CSM and AMA specs. Report the number on your VAC and the start and stop points in inches Hg with a vacuum pump, and apply the Two-Inch Rule to select a replacement.

                  Your OE max centrifugal is 32 @ 5000 according to the Corvette News specs. What does your CSM and AMA specs say?

                  I'm getting together with my friend again this weekend. I knew that Bubba had been in his distributor because there was a wad of grease on the centrifugal advance mechanism. We cleaned that off and applied a coat of WD-40 but it still only had 20 degrees max centrifugal. I wanted to pull and disassemble the dist. to find out what's going on, but he wanted to think about it. We now plan on doing that on Saturday, and I said I want to get back to close to OE spec and go from there.

                  My other concern is that the dimple is backwards and the wires are not indexed properly. His #1 is adjacent to the drivers side edge of the window, which is correct for a SB, but I'm not sure about a BB. I need to check the CSM. Also, I noted that the window was several degrees CCW to engine centerline. On a SB it should be closer to normal to engine CL. Improper assembly of the distributor, like the dimple orientation, or wire indexing can throw the rotor out of alignment with the cap and cause misfires.

                  I've run across very few distributors that haven't been messed up somewhere along the way, and most by so-called "professionals".

                  From contemporaneous Corvette News the specs for the '66 427/390 are 4 initial, 4-10 range, 0@6", 16 @ 12", start at 900, 30 at 5000. For '67 both the 390 and 400 HP 427 are speced at 4 initial and the 4-10 range is deleted. The VAC max was cut to 12 @ 12", and centrifugal was increased to 32 @ 5000. Net effect is less low speed, low load advance.

                  This looks like a pretty good map, but the centrifugal is very lazy, I'd like to get it all in earlier, but without the "trailer hitching". At least when we tested with lighter springs it didn't detonate no matter how hard I tried to get it to do so.

                  If you have any trouble understanding what I'm saying in this post get a hold of my tuning seminar and read it. Web search duke Williams corvette tuning.

                  If you can snap a photo of the top of your dist. with the rotor removed. I want to see your weights and springs. I suspect the '66's weights are non-OE due to their geometry and I want to compare with yours.

                  Duke

                  Comment

                  • Dereck S.
                    Very Frequent User
                    • July 30, 2008
                    • 244

                    #10
                    Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

                    Thanks for all the responses. To clarify the miss. It trailer hitches at light load and/or low speed. It's very annoying. I believe it does the same at idle based on the sound. I don't believe it's lope. I reported vacuum as psi. It should have been inches of Hg. I hear the miss coming from the LH side exhaust. I'll try to respond to each question asked.
                    - The vacuum canister is a new B26. I installed that after I had initially put an NOS 360 pod in. I thought it might be an issue with the 360. It had no affect.
                    - The vacuum advance pod takes "as designed" port vacuum. When I measured idle vacuum I tee'd into the choke pull-off.
                    - I focused heavily on a potential vacuum leak. I replaced all three 3x2 carb base gaskets and ensured there were no leaks. I'll check again. When I rebuilt the front and rear carbs I noticed the main housings to base plate interfaces were warped as well. I sanded them flat.
                    - The distributor is the original 1111247 with the partial oil groove. Here are the distributor specs the rebuilder provided:

                    Centrifugal Advance/Engine RPM & Dist. Degrees

                    (Spec) (Actual)
                    Start 1000/0 - 2.7 1000/ 1.0

                    Intermediate 1200/2.5 - 5.0 1200/ 3.0
                    2000/7.5 - 9.5 2000/ 9.5

                    Maximum 5000/15 - 17 5000/ 16.0


                    Vacuum Advance B26 (Spec) (Actual)

                    Inches of Hg to start 6-8 7.5

                    Inches of Hg full advance 11.3 - 12.5 12.5

                    Max degrees advance 5.4 - 7.4 7.5

                    I also believe it is a lean miss that is fuel related. The plugs were snow white. I was only able to improve that by turning out the idle screws and increasing the main jet sizes. Neither seem right to me. I haven't ruled out a vacuum leak somewhere that I just haven't located. Lifter adjustment was 3/4 turn past zero lash. I don't think I screwed that up. The lifters were new since the cam was new to ensure proper break-in. I didn't think about the Harmonic Balancer. However, I confirmed during assembly that #1 was at TDC when the timing cover marks were aligned. I felt it was good. I hope I answered everything. I like the trailer hitch comment. That's exactly what's happening. Advancing timing makes the issue worse. However, retarding timing as low as physically possible doesn't eliminate the issue. The white spark plugs still concern me as a good indicator of insufficient fuel or a vacuum leak.

                    Comment

                    • Dereck S.
                      Very Frequent User
                      • July 30, 2008
                      • 244

                      #11
                      Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

                      I don't know how to fix the distributor spec formatting. It's listed as spec and actual but the formatting is messed up. Duke, I'll need to study your response more in depth since there is a tremendous amount of info I need to review.
                      Dereck

                      Comment

                      • Dereck S.
                        Very Frequent User
                        • July 30, 2008
                        • 244

                        #12
                        Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

                        Duke
                        As I work through your response here's one answer to your comment about what the Elgin E-1589S cam LSA is.

                        Intake centerline = 110 deg (published)
                        Exhaust centerline = 120 deg (published)

                        LSA = (120 + 110)/2

                        LSA = 115 deg

                        I believe this LSA would be identical to GM #3883986. I'm still working on other calculations to compare the Elgin cam selected to the GM stock cam. Let me know if I do something wrong.

                        Comment

                        • Dereck S.
                          Very Frequent User
                          • July 30, 2008
                          • 244

                          #13
                          Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

                          Duke
                          Attached is an image of my distributor specs following the rebuild. It was conducted with a NAPA B26 vacuum pod and breaker points. Note this is distributor degrees not crank degrees. Let me know if you see anything alarming.
                          Attached Files

                          Comment

                          • Frank D.
                            Expired
                            • December 27, 2007
                            • 2703

                            #14
                            Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

                            Just a random thought but fuel pressure is NOT fuel volume; separate items. I would confirm the fuel pressure and do a volume check....a vacuum/pressure test gauge is required; both procedures are in the attachment.

                            Something else to check off your list definitively...
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                            • Duke W.
                              Beyond Control Poster
                              • January 1, 1993
                              • 15670

                              #15
                              Re: 67 427/400 Fresh Rebuild Frustration Help

                              Your LSA calculation is correct, and it matches the OE cam. So if your cam was manufactured to published spec it should be identical to OE. I wasn't aware that the '67 L-68 is ported vacuum advance, but I know L-71 is, and now assume that '67 L-36 is too. The '66 L-36 is full time, however before we installed the new B-26 VAC it might has well have been ported because the OE 355 15 was basically stuck and didn't pull until 15", which was manifold vacuum at 600 idle speed.

                              Also your spark advance map looks OE other than the OE 360 VAC's actual advance, which is closer to the 355's nominal 16 rather than the 360's nominal 12.

                              As you found advancing timing increases idle speed. As you will learn in the tuning seminar total idle advance should be in the range of 20-30 degrees, and the higher the overlap the more is needed for optimal idle quality and minimum idle fuel consumption. The L-36/68 cam is medium overlap, so should like about 25 degrees total idle advance. The SB 30-30 cam likes low thirties.

                              I should have more to report assuming I'll be working on the '66 L-36 distributor this weekend, which is the current plan.

                              Duke
                              Last edited by Duke W.; September 17, 2020, 09:30 AM.

                              Comment

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