Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

**Dan B.** · September 15, 2020, 09:51 PM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Lectric Limited makes all their products from the original factory blue prints and everything should appear and function as such.

GM service replacements, not so much.

**Joe L.** · September 16, 2020, 01:38 AM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Originally posted by Mark Edmondson (22468)

Well, my exhaust replacement project expanded into replacing the battery box, which expanded into replacing the battery cables. I have two replacement positive cables, both of which will work and fit but neither of which is identical to the original (see photos).

I'm not sure what to do. I'll call Lectric Limited tomorrow and ask if they have (or can make) a cable with a 5/16" hex-head and a different solenoid terminal. Or I can cut off the pigtail from the service replacement cable.

Or maybe one of you knows of another source for a "correct" cable...?

Left to right: original, service replacement, Lectric Limited
[ATTACH=CONFIG]101188[/ATTACH]

Service replacement has a red pig-tail and 5/16" hex-head; LL has 7/16" hex-head. According to the JG, 5/16" is what I need ( 1970 #12931)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]101189[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]101190[/ATTACH]

The donut on the service replacement (center) is much thicker and less pliable than the donuts on original and LL cables:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]101191[/ATTACH]

Original (left) has a woven sleeve over the insulation at starter end, and its terminal has a slot with no prong. Service replacement (center) has no sleeve, and a slot with a prong. LL (right) has a hard rubber sleeve over the insulation, no slot, no prong.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]101192[/ATTACH]

Here's the box for the service replacement cable I bought over the counter about 25 years ago (it took me awhile to get around to this

)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]101193[/ATTACH]

Mark------

I'm not aware of any 1969-82 Corvette that used anything but a 5/16" head, 3/8-16 thread positive battery terminal bolt. I don't know why the LL has a 7/16" head bolt. 1969 and, possibly very early 1970's, did use a different size for the negative terminal. My vague recollection is that bolt did use a different size head but I do not recall what it was. For sure, the negative bolt and negative battery terminal were not 3/8-16 thread but were 5/16-18 thread.

Your NOS battery cable is NOT the original part number for the cable for your car so it can be expected that it will be different from the original. As a matter of fact, it's a 6th generation replacement. It would be correct for a 1982 Corvette but not correct for any earlier Corvette. If you could find a GM #8901723 cable you'd have the correct cable. Your chances of finding such a cable? About as great as the people in hell getting ice water. It was discontinued in October, 1970 and underwent at least 6 successive supersessions.

You can change the terminal bolt in the LL cable rather easily to a 5/8" head bolt. GM #19115561 will do the trick. Just push out the old bolt and push in the new.

**Terry M.** · September 16, 2020, 08:40 AM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Joe
Your recollection is correct, but let me add some detail -- all of which is in the 1970-72 TIM&JG. There are also pieces of this detail in the 1968-69 TIM&JG as it applies to late 1969 as well. Additionally, in the mid-1990s I wrote a more detailed article in The Corvette Restorer on this subject.

The positive cable bolt head is/should be 7/16 from the start of Sealed Side Terminal (SST) batteries in late 1969 going forward to about 1970 s/n12,000. The threaded end is/was 3/8-16. After 1970 s/n12,000 the bolt head became 5/16 with the same thread size.
The negative cable bolt head was 7/16 from the start of SST batteries until about 1970 s/n12,000. The threaded end is/was 5/16-16 until about 1970 s/n12,000. After that point in 1970 the negative and positive bolt heads are 5/16 and the bolt threads are 3/8-16 and the bolts are interchangeable.

The initial thinking was to prevent threading the positive cable into the negative battery connection, and/or vise versa -- thus the different bolt threads. It turned out that electrical contact produced system damage without actually threading the bolts into the battery. Additionally, the larger 7/16 bolt head necessitated a long enough wrench to easily over-torque the bolts into the battery and consequently damage the battery terminal(s). There are a number of other factors that worked to change the system to common bolts for both terminals, but they are not germane to the point the OP raises.

In the OP's case the 5/16 heads for both bolts will work fine, should not receive a deduction in judging, and of course, modern SST batteries all come with 3/8-16 threads for both terminals. I do have a dry-charged SST battery (not for sale) with the different sized threads, but it is largely a museum artifact at this point. As you pointed out, the bolts are easily changed, and one can source the 5/16 head bolts with 3/8-16 threads quite easily.

Just a guess on my part, but LL probably provides their 1970 positive cables with 7/16 head bolts because the majority of 1970s should have that head size. That is likely (again a guess on my part) what the print they have calls for. A simple piece of paper in the cable packaging instructing the purchaser to substitute the 5/16 bolt for 1970 s/n greater than 12,000 would have been helpful. Another guess on my part, but a majority of their customers are not concerned about bolt head size and may not notice the difference in size and just use the wrench that fits the bolt.

Mark,
I would like to see that 7/16 head bolt, and I will trade you a 5/16 for it if you are willing and have the time. I will email you.

**Mark E.** · September 16, 2020, 09:16 AM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Thank you Joe and Terry! The level of knowledge in this club is unbelievable.

Terry- I'll try to dig up your "Restorer" article. I may be returning the LL cable, but no worries- I'll be sure to get you a bolt. Do you want two?

Any thoughts about the starter end? Sleeve or no sleeve? Prong or no prong? I'm leaning to what was found on the car; that cable came with the car in 1990 and was worn out then. (It's amazing how much damage some people can cause just by removing/replacing a battery.)

**Terry M.** · September 16, 2020, 09:41 AM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Originally posted by Mark Edmondson (22468)

Thank you Joe and Terry! The level of knowledge in this club is unbelievable.

Terry- I'll try to dig up your "Restorer" article. I may be returning the LL cable, but no worries- I'll be sure to get you a bolt. Do you want two?

Any thoughts about the starter end? Sleeve or no sleeve? Prong or no prong? I'm leaning to what was found on the car; that cable came with the car in 1990 and was worn out then. (It's amazing how much damage some people can cause just by removing/replacing a battery.)

I would be guessing about the starter end, as I no longer (for a long time) judge chassis. The prong and the woven covering is what I would expect. In my case it would take more product knowledge than I have to offer an opinion regarding judging. That said, we are talking about a minor deduction, if any, for each of these details. I applaud your attention to detail in replacing parts on your car, and your posts are enlightening (at least for me) as I have not kept up with the changing availability of parts.

No big deal on the bolt. I just thought if you were replacing it with the modern equivalent -- I wanted to see what LL was using for that "old style" bolt.

**Mark E.** · September 16, 2020, 01:19 PM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

I called LL; the conversation went like this:

Why is the solenoid terminal different than my original? "This is a low volume cable for us so it's not economical to reproduce the terminal. We use a functional replacement instead."

Why doesn't the starter end have a protective sleeve like my original? "Not all 1970 Corvettes have these. Plus we can't find that material."

Why does the battery terminal have a 7/16" hex-head? "That's what 1970 used." (We then had a conversation about the running change in 1970 from 7/16" to 5/16". I'm not sure they believed this. They're aware of what the JG shows and said it's wrong.)

So I decided to return the LL set and use my GM service replacement. I plan to cut off the pigtail, RTV the resulting wound, and reuse my old sleeve. The good news is LL agreed to refund the outbound shipping and pay for return shipping.

**Terry M.** · September 16, 2020, 01:39 PM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Originally posted by Mark Edmondson (22468)

I called LL; the conversation went like this:

Why is the solenoid terminal different than my original? "This is a low volume cable for us and not economical to reproduce the terminal. We use a functional replacement instead."

Why doesn't the starter end have a protective sleeve like my original? "Not all 1970 Corvettes have these. Plus we can't find that material."

Why does the battery terminal have a 7/16" hex-head? "That's what 1970 used." (We then had a conversation about the running change in 1970 from 7/16" to 5/16". I'm not sure they believed this. They aware of what the JG says and said it's wrong.)

So I decided to return the LL set and use my GM service replacement. I plan to cut off the pigtail, RTV the resulting wound, and reuse my old sleeve. The good news is LL agreed to refund the outbound shipping and pay for return shipping.

Just to let everyone know: The sources of my information are included in that Restorer article. They include the applicable Engineering Change Requests (ECR), conversations with Bill Clupper; who was the liaison between Packard Electric (makers of the wiring for the cars) and Corvette assembly, and communications with Norman Uhlir (who was one of the Chevrolet release Engineers for the Corvette, and other, wiring). Bill Clupper should be familiar to long-time NCRS members as he was the President of NCRS for a while and instrumental in the beginnings of the Corvette Museum. The text of my story about the introduction of the SST contains how I found Norm Uhlir. That in itself shows how small a world the collector car hobby is. We in the Corvette "hobby" are blessed in that many of the original people who built our cars are still around, but not for much longer. When researching how our cars were built, there is no substitute for the original people.

I was able to look at a number of 1970 Corvettes with unmolested battery cables, but I did concentrate on the battery end because my focus was the introduction of the SST battery. In hindsight I should have looked at the solenoid end while I had the chance. We grow too soon old, and too late smart.

I am not surprised that the LL people treated you well. They are good people, but they don't have the time to do the depth of research we can. When they said it was a low volume product, that said it all from their perspective. We are fortunate to have someone willing to make wiring for our cars.

**Joe L.** · September 16, 2020, 02:18 PM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Originally posted by Terry McManmon (3966)

Joe
Your recollection is correct, but let me add some detail -- all of which is in the 1970-72 TIM&JG. There are also pieces of this detail in the 1968-69 TIM&JG as it applies to late 1969 as well. Additionally, in the mid-1990s I wrote a more detailed article in The Corvette Restorer on this subject.

The positive cable bolt head is/should be 7/16 from the start of Sealed Side Terminal (SST) batteries in late 1969 going forward to about 1970 s/n12,000. The threaded end is/was 3/8-16. After 1970 s/n12,000 the bolt head became 5/16 with the same thread size.
The negative cable bolt head was 7/16 from the start of SST batteries until about 1970 s/n12,000. The threaded end is/was 5/16-16 until about 1970 s/n12,000. After that point in 1970 the negative and positive bolt heads are 5/16 and the bolt threads are 3/8-16 and the bolts are interchangeable.

The initial thinking was to prevent threading the positive cable into the negative battery connection, and/or vise versa -- thus the different bolt threads. It turned out that electrical contact produced system damage without actually threading the bolts into the battery. Additionally, the larger 7/16 bolt head necessitated a long enough wrench to easily over-torque the bolts into the battery and consequently damage the battery terminal(s). There are a number of other factors that worked to change the system to common bolts for both terminals, but they are not germane to the point the OP raises.

In the OP's case the 5/16 heads for both bolts will work fine, should not receive a deduction in judging, and of course, modern SST batteries all come with 3/8-16 threads for both terminals. I do have a dry-charged SST battery (not for sale) with the different sized threads, but it is largely a museum artifact at this point. As you pointed out, the bolts are easily changed, and one can source the 5/16 head bolts with 3/8-16 threads quite easily.

Just a guess on my part, but LL probably provides their 1970 positive cables with 7/16 head bolts because the majority of 1970s should have that head size. That is likely (again a guess on my part) what the print they have calls for. A simple piece of paper in the cable packaging instructing the purchaser to substitute the 5/16 bolt for 1970 s/n greater than 12,000 would have been helpful. Another guess on my part, but a majority of their customers are not concerned about bolt head size and may not notice the difference in size and just use the wrench that fits the bolt.

Mark,
I would like to see that 7/16 head bolt, and I will trade you a 5/16 for it if you are willing and have the time. I will email you.

Terry------

The positive terminal bolt on my late 1969 definitely had a 5/16" head. It's never been changed and is pictured below. I believe the negative terminal bolt was as you described. I'm certain that it had 5/16-18 threads because when I replaced the original battery I had to change the bolt since the original battery with 3/8-16" positive terminal and 5/16-18" negative terminal was no longer available. In fact, I remember being quite surprised when I found that the new battery would not work with my original negative terminal bolt. I believe I still have the original bolt. But, as I say, I'm absolutely certain that it was the negative terminal. I'm even more certain that the original positive terminal bolt was 5/16" head with 3/8-16 thread because it's still in the car. You will also note that the likely original positive cable which Mark pictures has a 5/16" head.

The original 1969 positive cable was GM #6297644. This was also the cable that was supposed to have been used for early 1970's. It was replaced by GM #8901723 sometime during the model year. This may be the cable that had the 7/16" head. The 8901723 was replaced for SERVICE in October, 1970 by GM #8901856, the same cable that replaced the 6297644 for SERVICE in November, 1970.

The 1969 negative cable was GM #6297645. This is the cable that for my car had the bolt with the 5/16-18 thread and, likely, 7/16" head size. It was was also supposed to have been used for early 1970. It was replaced by the GM #8901724 sometime during the model year. The GM #6297645 was never superseded for SERVICE. It was discontinued without supersession in March, 1981. I wonder how many folks bought this cable for a 1969 and discovered they had to change the terminal bolt? The GM #8901724 was discontinued from SERVICE in November, 1972 and replaced by GM #8901981 which was discontinued without supersession in October, 1992.

DSCN3764.jpg DSCN3765.jpg DSCN3766.jpg

**Terry M.** · September 16, 2020, 05:12 PM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Joe
Now you have forced me to go to look at my notes from that story rather than relying on my memory.

I do remember Bill Clupper telling me the 5/16 head bolts were made by Packard in Warren Ohio, and they had one machine to produce them. He found the 7/16 head bolts were outsourced. Economics of scale were one of the other reasons to change to the same bolt for each terminal. That machine would argue for a 5/16 head from the start, but I think I have a 7/16 head bolt with a 3/8-16 thread.

Your car is what build date?

**James G.** · September 16, 2020, 07:01 PM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

I've got a NOS negative 5/16 - 18 7/16 hex dished head bolt, guess you could custom thread a battery disconnect and use it?

Joe, I dont know when the cable ends changed, however original 69 cables as you have pictured have the delco Eye on the cable ends, Lectric Limited doesn't produce cables with the Eye (we over at the CRG and like have inquired regarding 69 Camaro late cables, which should also have the eye) because it's an additional copyright... How long into 70 -71 did they run the Eye cables on Corvettes, my 30k mile May 70 Z28 had an eye cable on the positive side and the neg had been replaced, we know why...
pretty sure by 71 they only have a (+) (-)

**Joe L.** · September 16, 2020, 07:39 PM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Originally posted by Terry McManmon (3966)

Joe
Now you have forced me to go to look at my notes from that story rather than relying on my memory.

I do remember Bill Clupper telling me the 5/16 head bolts were made by Packard in Warren Ohio, and they had one machine to produce them. He found the 7/16 head bolts were outsourced. Economics of scale were one of the other reasons to change to the same bolt for each terminal. That machine would argue for a 5/16 head from the start, but I think I have a 7/16 head bolt with a 3/8-16 thread.

Your car is what build date?

Terry------

The build date of my car is 9/13/69.

Do you mean that you think that the positive terminal bolt on your 1970 is 7/16 head with 3/8-16 thread?

**Joe L.** · September 16, 2020, 07:50 PM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Mark------

Please post photos of the battery terminal end of your original positive cable.

**Terry M.** · September 16, 2020, 09:46 PM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Originally posted by Joe Lucia (12484)

Terry------

The build date of my car is 9/13/69.

Do you mean that you think that the positive terminal bolt on your 1970 is 7/16 head with 3/8-16 thread?

Yes, Joe. I am sure the positive and negative bolts on my 1970 (January 29) were both 7/16 hex. Two different thread sizes as we have discussed.

I am still going through my notes. They were archived, so I have to do some excavating to reach them. I didn't think I would ever need them. I have been giving a lot of my earlier work to the Corvette Museum, but I think I still have a file on this.

**Joe L.** · September 16, 2020, 10:57 PM

Re: Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Originally posted by Terry McManmon (3966)

Yes, Joe. I am sure the positive and negative bolts on my 1970 (January 29) were both 7/16 hex. Two different thread sizes as we have discussed.

I am still going through my notes. They were archived, so I have to do some excavating to reach them. I didn't think I would ever need them. I have been giving a lot of my earlier work to the Corvette Museum, but I think I still have a file on this.

Terry------

The more I think about it, I don't think the larger head bolt was 7/16. I just don't remember a bolt the size of the one in the photo above of the LL cable. I think the larger head, at least the one on my 1969 negative cable, was likely 3/8, not 7/16. It makes more sense, too. A 5/16 on one and 3/8 on the other.

Can't you check the ones on your 1970?

Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

Battery Cable Woes- 1970 454

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