1972 Outside mirror

[Dick W.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

The Practice of "Benefit of the doubt goes to the owner" should change to benefit of reasonable doubt...goes to the owner. Your point underscores why.

AGREE with you Tom in a perfect world, but the judging field is far from perfect with too many self professed experts.

[Gary B.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

I just found a 12-billion lumin flashlight. Battery life is 32-seconds. Now we will be able to see through the fiberglass !!
Gary B

[Patrick H.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

Personal opinion, judging has gotten to the point of being ridiculous when you have to use a flashlight to determine if a mirror is original. The fun tent is folding in a hurry, that is the reason I quit judging.

I found this flashlight and started to use it because of the unusually high CRI. This particular LED is so color accurate that it's used by professional photographers, etc. I'm not sure there is a better one, and definitely not at this price point.

I was tired of the "blue" LED flashlights and incorrect color renderings one would then see when judging. And, let's face it, we often have to use a flashlight to see what we're judging. I use it judging any area of the car so that what I "see" matches what I think I should see. A nice bonus is that the light lasts for an entire Regional or National on just one charge.

As I noted, I'm not sure the flashlight test is definitive. It would be interesting to see what Gary might notice if he checked the cars to which he has access and see which ones fully reflect and which ones don't. I suspect that there are originals that don't.

PH

[Gary B.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

Steven, leave your mirror alone. I had a identical dated mirror here for my car, I took it apart and painted the back side just to mess with John. My original mirror is back on the car. Dickey is right, the fun is gone. But sometimes, you can make fun and mess with the judges. "They" are so serious sometimes they are just begging to be messed with.

John's story to me was... Original C3 mirror's used mercury in them. Reproduction mirror's do not. A quick search this morning, Google is our friend, show's the U.S. Government banned Mercury in mirrors in 1850. 170-years ago. So... Mythbuster has de-bunked another Ballard-ism. Mirror's today use a light silver wash over the front side of the glass, then they acid etch the silver off the front side for the date.

I have bought mirror's off sleeze bay, carlisle, and used the original glass on cars without real glass. Most of the time, the mirror head needs to be fixed anyways. I have collected several DMI and Ajax mirrors. This morning I dug them out of the meat locker, and shined a flashlight thru them. ALL C3 MIRROR'S you can shine a light through them. The silver wash DOES NOT block light.

I have the same flashlight as Patrick. They are great. Thank you Patrick. I set the flashlight inside a corner of a box, set a mirror on top of it and these are the pictures. I did both DMI and AX mirrors. If you set the mirrors on a mirror base and shine a light the other way, especially the new hi-power light's, they do shine through the silver and you can see "inside" the mirror.

I am going to make another mirror for my 70 when it goes out for judging. I'll remove the glass, tighten the head up so it does not droop, and make a decal for the inside that says "John, what you looking for?"

Gary Bosselman

[Steven B.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

Wow, I am getting a huge kick out of these threads! Seems like I have ignited a fire. I will not do anything to my mirror. Again thanks for all the responses.

[Terry M.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

Wow, I am getting a huge kick out of these threads! Seems like I have ignited a fire. I will not do anything to my mirror. Again thanks for all the responses.

Steven,

After all this commotion: How many points did John deduct for your "see through" mirror?

[Dick W.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

. Mythbuster has de-bunked another Ballard-ism.

Gary Bosselman

EX SPURT? maybe

[Patrick H.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

I love it. Great job, Gary.

And he's right, you have to have fun with this.
I leave my mark on all the cars that visit here, usually in small ways that give me a smile if nothing else.
The one here right now will have my 9th birthday as the frame stencil date. Why? Because I can and the date fits.

Can't wait to see the custom mirror for John.

[Dick W.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

[QUOTE=Gary Bosselman (2575);865906] But sometimes, you can make fun and mess with the judges. "They" are so serious sometimes they are just begging to be messed with.

Intercoursing with the judges was the fun part of putting a car through the system. Unfortunately there are a few things in the Judging Reference Manual that would have my picture beside them if they were in a dictionary. I was around NASCAR in the '60's and learned if it ain't spelled out in the rule book, go ahead and do it. I refused to get caught up in the "it left the factory with .008 of dust on the ...... mentality. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it probably is most likely a duck. That was the philosophy that I tried to instill in my judging teams when I was '68-'69 team leader. You try to vary too far from that philosophy on the judging field, there was a good chance you were not selected to judge for me again. There were several that judged for me once or twice and never selected again.

[Mike E.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

[QUOTE=Dick Whittington (8804);865944]

But sometimes, you can make fun and mess with the judges. "They" are so serious sometimes they are just begging to be messed with.

Intercoursing with the judges was the fun part of putting a car through the system. Unfortunately there are a few things in the Judging Reference Manual that would have my picture beside them if they were in a dictionary. I was around NASCAR in the '60's and learned if it ain't spelled out in the rule book, go ahead and do it. I refused to get caught up in the "it left the factory with .008 of dust on the ...... mentality. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it probably is most likely a duck. That was the philosophy that I tried to instill in my judging teams when I was '68-'69 team leader. You try to vary too far from that philosophy on the judging field, there was a good chance you were not selected to judge for me again. There were several that judged for me once or twice and never selected again.

Dick,
I appreciate your words. As you know, I was 61-62 team leader twice. I hammered home to my judging teams that the NCRS was/is about people, and Corvettes are the venue that bring us people together. I've been a member for 45 years, and at this point, I don't know if I would be brave enough to bring a car for judging, other than possibly bowtie. It has become a competition between the judge and the restorer, with the judge holding the upper hand. Less and less cars are being presented for judging--I just can't figure out why!

[Steven B.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

Terry, the deduction was 2 points. Notes were " N.T.P. (see through) gasket fit".

[Ed H.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

I have ordered the primo delux LED flashlight. Thank you Patrick.

I will say even with having some fun with the judges, the ones I have encountered have all been fair, professional and helpful. John B.'s knowledge and his 8-million lumin LED flashlight have made us and our Corvettes better.

[Terry M.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

Terry, the deduction was 2 points. Notes were " N.T.P. (see through) gasket fit".

So one point for the see through and one for the gasket fit out of 4510 points.

I don't think the problem, if any, is with the judging system or the judges.

[Dick W.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

[QUOTE=Mike Ernst (211);865945]

It has become a competition between the judge and the restorer, with the judge holding the upper hand. Less and less cars are being presented for judging--I just can't figure out why!

Seems the BOD can't see the big picture either. Maybe when the fun tent folded it covered their eyes

[Gary B.]

Re: 1972 Outside mirror

And here in lies the problem. I agree, it's only one or two points. In the grand scheme of things, you can loose 270 points before loosing top flight. 135-points for Duntov. But... the issue here is deducting for original parts. And/Or a judge not knowing what is original.

When an owner receives a deduction, they want to fix it to score better next time. Human nature. Off comes the original part, on goes something else not so original. Pretty soon, what happens to the original car. Yes, you can say it's only a mirror, next it's something else, then something else, then something else, so on... I know we are a RESTORERS society. But without original cars to kick around, where would we be.

Over the last few years, I run my 72 through the system. Flight, PV, Duntov, Bowtie. I tried not to take it to serious, if the car scored over 97%, I rarely questioned point deductions, but I did question deductions for Originality. Brake hoses, shocks, air filter, oil filter, mirror, fan belts, plug wires, list goes on. I always asked first what does the 70-72 TIM&JG say. Judges mostly are NOT familiar with the manual or are not following the manual. I know more than some dumb manual. Always got most my points back, because I know the manual pretty darn good. Well, except for the mirror which probably still causes John to loose sleep, but the original one is back on now. Never questioned condition point deductions. The car did well. Thank you everybody.

Maybe, JUDGES need to run a car through the system every 3-years, or 5-years to maintain there Master Judge status. It's a good learning experience, it's a humbling experience, even for those of us over 400-points. Both the Judges and the car owner learned a lot. Or maybe the Judge that's the car owner learned the most?

It's not about the points. It's about keeping the cars original. Yup, it's only a mirror, but what's next? I have already marked my copy of the 70-72 TIM&JG based on my past experiences and this experience....

Gary B