Fuel for Mid-year cars.

[Jim L.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

Elliot, I've been aware that EPA has considered E15 for some time. That Hemmings article doesn't address the present CARB rules, however. The absolute latest information I could find this morning on the CARB web page is the one-year old report I cited. It appears that E15 is not presently available in California. Jim

[Edward M.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

I have a 64 300hp coupe, original motor, fresh restoration with 1500 miles on it.

It ran OK on 91 octane 10% ethanol gas.

I switched over to 93 octane no ethanol and saw no noticeable difference.

I just installed a 1964 vintage Rochester Fuel Injection system, completely rebuilt and installed on my car by the rebuilder.

It ran like crap on the 93 octane no ethanol, and had a bad case of percolation. TO be honest, the day was 98 degrees, with a heat index of 105 degrees, and something like 97% humidity. Propbably the worst type of day for an FI car.

On the recommendation of Jerry Bramlett and Ken Hansen, I switched over to 110 octane racing fuel because of the FI system.

This car runs like a scalded dog now, even though it is just a 300hp motor with an FI unit on it.

Reflecting back, I can honestly say that the original carburetor and distributor needed adjustments. The car was built in Denver, and tuned for the Denver climate / altitude. I never got around to tuning for north Alabama climate.

[Ray K.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

I discovered about 2 months ago that some of the Buc-EEs travel centers around the state of Texas carry a 92 octane rating " Ethanol Free " gasoline, clearly marked with blue nozzles and blue hoses and priced at about $3.45 per gallon in the DFW area. The station nearest to me which is across the road from Texas Motor Speedway does not have it available, so needed to go to Denton area to purchase.

Ray

[Gary C.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

Have found this website fairly accurate for non-ethanol gas vendors.

https://www.pure-gas.org/

Gary
....

[Ed S.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

There is also a free smart phone app for Pure Gas. Like Gary said, "fairly accurate". If you plan to make a trip to a gas station that is listed in Pure Gas I recommend that you call before you make the trip and confirm that they still carry it and that they have some on hand. I learned the hard way.

[Terry M.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

Have found this website fairly accurate for non-ethanol gas vendors.

https://www.pure-gas.org/

Gary
....

My experience with that Pure gas web site in Illinois is the ethanol free gasoline that is available is 87 octane and available in the rural parts of the state. Not quite good enough for anything I drive, even though the Z06 will go down the road on it. The Z06 is built for corn juice, but I am sure the low octane is not good for it. I find it ironic, to say the least, that the growers of the corn that makes the Ethanol want Ethanol free gasoline for their own use. I think that says all there needs to be said about the situation. As others have said above: Follow the money.

[Elliott P.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

Jim, I stand corrected. A funny thing happened on the way to the forum today. I went by several gasoline stations in my (California) neighborhood today to examine the gas pumps to see what the ethanol content was. There is no notice on the pumps that they even contain ethanol. I asked several attendants, they had no idea. At one station, the owner was there and he did not know. I recall in days of yore we were informed clearly on the gas pumps that the gas contained ethanol; I can not recall if we were told how much. That is one of the problems living in a nanny-state, it is apparently best to not be informed. We are expected to trust. Unfortunately, being an analytical engineer, I trust for the worst. I do note that we are usually informed when the seasonal switch is made from summer to winter gas blend to better address the climate. BTW, this is often used as the excuse for a price jump due to the suppliers not being able to handle the switch-over in a timely manner. Thus, I assumed (you know what that does), that the 15% was the winter blend. I can not find any current published data saying that your referenced California 2018 CARB rules have been changed that do limit California to 10% ethanol. (I did find more recent mention that E15 actually can increase nitrogen-oxide emissions, which in turn leads to more ozone, a known contributor to smog.)

Why do I follow this ethanol debacle? I am not against clean air, mother-hood or apple pie. I just know that ethanol is not good for my old cars and that there are other potential oxygenators that can be developed to both reduce the fossil-fuel content and provide the supplemental oxygen needed for clean burn and octane improvement in the mid-term. The corn lobby has hijacked the system for steamrolling profit on the ethanol bandwagon. And, it galls me that we turn good food (and drinkable alcohol) into crappy short-shelf-life fuel when folks are starving around the world. Oh yes, it is highly political and greed driven, particularly in the current Prez.Trump-Guv.Newsom school yard brawl. Latest example here @: https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-...531-story.html

[Frank D.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

Regardless of the "corn" economics how do you, "...just know that ethanol is not good for my old cars"?

[Jim L.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

Elliot, how do you know when the switch between summer/winter blends takes place? I sorta/kinda know by the time of year and the ambient temperatures, but I don't remember ever seeing a notice on the pumps. I am working on the fuel perc problem as it relates to the old Rochester FI units and would love to know for certain which fuel I'm buying around the time of the changeover.

BTW, I also live in the People's Republik of Kalifornia, just on the opposite edge from you.

[Duke W.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

IIRC switch to winter blend is in the Oct/Nov time frame and back to summer blend in the Mar/Apr time frame. I think the changeover window is about 30 days. The primary difference is Reid Vapor pressure, which is higher in the winter blend, so it has a greater tendency to percolate in non-pressurized fuel systems if it's still in the tank in the hotter months.

Duke

[Jim L.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

Not to get the thread off track.... With winter blend, I've experienced fuel perc with Rochester FI with nozzle line temps in the 105F - 110F range and ambient temps in the 70s. Winter blend is bad juju.

[Elliott P.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

Jim, I usually hear of it over news-radio from several sources. And it is usually associated with complaints about hike in fuel price. So again, source is not the guvmint.

Edit: Gee, wouldn't it be nice to know what they do change for the two seasonal blends?

[Elliott P.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

Frank, I know from my personal experience with my old cars, and experience of my friends (gas line failure flooding garage with gas, a very narrow escape), and acknowledgement from local old-car specialist mechanics, and the preponderance of reporting I read. As I said early-on, ethanol is contentious, and some things may be unknowable. You know, like climate change. There will always be the doubters.

[Jim L.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

Subsequent to this thread I contacted the C.A.R.B. and inquired about the availability of E15 here in the People's Republik. This is the response:

Hello Jim,

E15 is not available in Californnia and we are currently evaluating the potential environmental impacts to determine whether it would be appropriate to allow it. If you should need further assistance with this inquiry, please contact Alexander Mitchell at Alexander.Mitchell@arb.ca.gov or (916)327-1513.

Thank you

[Domenic T.]

Re: Fuel for Mid-year cars.

I'm one of the lucky ones. I live in CA and have access to av gas. Absolutly NO problems other than having to pour it in the tank and if I have to drive a long distance that requires me to buy gas. In the past I used water injection and the pinging went away.
I love the vette for it's power and refuse to de tune the engine, as that was what the was about amongst other things. I stuck with NCRS rules as much as I could with nuts and bolts, markings and so forth. Changing the engine parts to run on pump gas I think is a insult to the car.
I lost a piston in a driver Chevelle 427 due to dieseling and using what was suggested here. It was a automatic and I was embarrased trying to get the engine to shut down. The knocking during dieseling was to much and I would turn the ignition to ON again so the engine would run. Actually had to turn everything on to load the engine, A/C lights, and keep the automatic trans in drive. The result of using pump gas and keeping the factory tune caused me to crack a piston. Yes, it was HOT outside, but having people turn and look at a car turning on and off making a a loud knocking noise dieseling was enough for me. I de tuned the engine a few days earlier and thought I was driving a station wagon, so back to factory specs at the cost of a teardown.
I truly feel for the guys that have fuel problems. It's a battle. de tune or change the heart of the car (engine parts) or buy decent fuel. What a choice to have to make. If you never had the chance to drive the car on good fuel then it may seem just fine by changes to the engine. I was lucky enough to have driven them back then and can really tell the difference using pump gas. And I also have one stored since 2007 that has av gas in it since, and still starts right up and runs great. I can only say that as it is on a NON OP and can't leave the ramp.

Dom